Elsie Escobar shares what it was like being a podcaster before it was "cool," how to capitalize on having your podcast featured or promoted, and the unique struggles facing female podcasters.
Listen to Elsie's show, "She Podcasts," and join the She Podcasts FB Group.
Subscribe to Buzzsprout Conversations on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app.
Do you know somebody we should interview on Buzzzsprout Conversations? Reach out on Twitter.
Elsie Escobar shares what it was like being a podcaster before it was "cool," how to capitalize on having your podcast featured or promoted, and the unique struggles facing female podcasters.
Listen to Elsie's show, "She Podcasts," and join the She Podcasts FB Group.
Subscribe to Buzzsprout Conversations on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app.
Do you know somebody we should interview on Buzzzsprout Conversations? Reach out on Twitter.
If I see a show that's like doing really well or something like that and I want to see, like, what their numbers are, or if they're being featured in Apple podcast, I want to see what those numbers are. But I'm not curious about the numbers that are when they're being featured. I'm curious about the other numbers after they're being featured, and it's always the same. You see this gigantic spike that tells you exactly how long they were featured in Apple podcast and then you see the same exact drop right afterwards, unless there's an X factor.
Alban Brooke:Hey everybody, welcome back. Today. I'm joined by Elsie Escobar. Elsie's been podcasting since 2006, so nearly 15 years, and over the 15 years she's had an incredible impact on the podcasting industry. Through her work at Libsyn, she podcasts live do their own conference. She's the cohost of numerous podcasts which we will talk about probably all of them and an Academy of Podcasters Hall of Fame inductee. Elsie, thank you so much for being here.
Elsie Escobar:Thank you for having me, Alvin.
Alban Brooke:So for people who don't know much about you, can you give us a bit of your background and what you're doing in podcasting now?
Elsie Escobar:Yeah, you know I started I would say like I started podcasting before. It was super cool, even though when I first started I thought it was the coolest thing I've ever found in the entire planet. So, 2006, when not very many people knew very much about it and I think I was I called a lot of attention because at that time there weren't very many people like me. And I say people like me because I kind of didn't fit the mold of the quintessential podcaster, which at that time was very, very heavily tech dude.
Alban Brooke:That's all the.
Elsie Escobar:Actually, you know what? I couldn't even say that because it was I think it was an also an older demographic to some degree it was at that time. I mean, I'm not aging you at all, I'm just saying that was my experience. And I was a yoga instructor and obviously I'm a woman and I happened to be from El Salvador. So I was an immigrant from El Salvador who was teaching yoga in LA and I decided to make a podcast. I was the person that was afraid of the computer and I thought AOL was the Internet. So, yeah, I'm dating myself.
Elsie Escobar:It was like way back in the day when I did all of that stuff and, in all honesty, my first big purchase ever in my entire life that I spent like that I felt at that time, was a lot of money was a PC, was a computer, it was a laptop. I bought it off of HSN and because I was on sale, you know, it was like one of those like buy it now. And I was like, okay, and I bought this PC and I got it specifically because I wanted, you know, to delve a little bit more into the world of the Internet. And in it I discovered, I think that same year, that I got that computer is when I discovered podcasting, and then it kind of gave me sort of the open door for me to mess around a little bit more with technology.
Elsie Escobar:I actually don't know why I was obsessed with it from the beginning. I think it was because it felt outside of the norm of where I was living and it aligned more with who I was. Because LA is so so it leads so much with the physical everything Like you look this way, you are this way. There's no moving outside of what people perceive you to be, like the end. There is no trying to be anything else, and I found that getting behind the microphone it gave me the opportunity to just be myself and I was all of these other things that I never got an opportunity to really talk about, and people wouldn't even want to like, consider any roles that were like the ones I felt I could play because of the way that I looked. Yeah.
Alban Brooke:So you're talking a little bit about roles. Your background before you were doing yoga and podcasting was you were an actor.
Elsie Escobar:Yeah, yeah. So I was in LA and of course I became a yoga teacher I mean that was and I also started teaching yoga before it was cool to, for you know, before it was cool, before all of that stuff. So I was waiting tables and then I started to do yoga at that time professionally. So I taught, I was an instructor for 10 years. I also pursued acting for 10 years, even though I was working a working actor for years before that as well, but I was doing that on stage and so when you get to Hollywood, it's a whole, it's a whole other thing.
Elsie Escobar:So I think podcasting was my salvation. It was the way in which I grounded by myself back into who I was, or back into myself, back into finding my voice, back into feeling empowered, back into feeling like I could create content, because coming from stage, I was always creating stuff, like in my. In our grad school program that I attended, we were given so much creative, like just leeway to be able to do so much and and to dream into the possibilities of being and pursuing any kind of work, that when you come to LA it it totally diminishes all of that and it really again just puts you in a one, in one spot, and I had a really hard time. I've never had, in fact, I'd never had that experience. So in my face, where people qualified who I was, just by the way that I looked and and put me in a category and there was no way to get out of it.
Elsie Escobar:And so that feeling was possibly the I think it really not to make this sad, but it was like the darkest time of my life, like I was the most, like it was the first time I ever experienced anything that I would call depression, because I felt like I didn't have any power. I felt completely powerless and getting behind the microphone was really a lifesaver for me. But actually, before getting behind the microphone, podcasting podcasters gave me, I think, a lot of the time, the courage to do that, to find myself before I even got behind the mic. Podcasters were the ones that helped me, because listening to podcasts was like life changing for me.
Alban Brooke:What were some of those podcasts and what? What were they saying?
Elsie Escobar:Oh my God, this is my favorite subject. So back in the day there were the LA podcasters and I. You know, at that time I because there were so little amount of podcasts in iTunes at the time, you could literally scroll through all of them, like.
Elsie Escobar:I remember, right, like you could just see them all, and so you had the opportunity to be able to like, choose from like a hundred or 500, right, I don't remember the exact number. It was a quantifiable amount where you could scroll through a lot of them. And after I had my initial sort of touch point of discovering what a podcast was and how cool it was for educational purposes, because I started listening to Harvard University courses that were delivered via podcasts, which now has moved into podcast iTunes University but at that time it was all in one place, so I was listening to those up first, and then inside of one of the classes that I was listening to, which was computing 101, because that's what a big nerd I am and because I didn't know how to use a computer. In all honesty, I didn't know it. So I started listening to this Harvard University course and there was a promo. Well, it wasn't really a promo, it was audio feedback that was sent to that show from another podcaster called at that time that show was called the typical PC user and the host was Victor Cahiao and he sent this piece of feedback and I thought, oh, that sounds really cool. And obviously, when he sent the audio feedback. He said I'm the host, you know he pitched himself. He was just like this is a you know, victor, from the typical PC user. You can find me at whatever URL, right? And I was like, ooh, I got to go check that out.
Elsie Escobar:So I subscribed to his show and in that I went into the rabbit hole of finding out so many other podcasts, including my co-host, rob Walsh, because he had a podcast 411 happening at that time, which was essentially I think I do believe it was the very first. I know this is bizarro. It was the very first interview podcast that was out there, I mean, and he was interviewing podcasters, which is kind of taking us full circle here. As to what you're talking about now. That this is listening to podcasting stories was is really like your audience really resonates with it because they hear these stories and they become so full. So I started to listen to podcast 411 and in that he would interview other podcasters and he would start off with, like you know, I think it was two questions that were always the same at the beginning and then they would just talk about that. You know, very normal.
Elsie Escobar:I was, like you know, 60 minutes or whatever, and I was exposed to so many podcasts that were happening at that time from people who I I was like you're podcasting, because I thought that it was all NPR types. You know that we're doing this stuff and I was exposed to all this and in diving into the small podcast podcaster industry not even industry podcasters I got to know the LA podcasters and so those LA podcasters that where, I think, fundamentally life changing for me because of what they were covering, who they were. I met with them in real life, like there was a meetup that I used to attend with them. Some of the things that they were, some of the topics that they were talking about, really hit really hard where I was at that time. And there was one podcast specifically that sadly it is potfated and he I wish, I wish he like he, peaked way too early. Let's put it that way.
Elsie Escobar:He peaked way early and it was called the Hollywood podcast. Tim was the host of that and he covered his life as a working actor in Hollywood. But he did it in a storytelling type format where he would tell stories of his life as they were happening and it was riveting. It was hilarious and deeply moving Like there were times where I was to walk down the street and laugh out loud and cry, like I was crying so hard for him because he was so intuitive, the stories were amazing and he ended up creating a book from it, one of the very first sort of books later on, like a chapter sort of book about that. And then he you know, I moved away from LA so I don't know what the story was, but he's like faded out. I don't even know what he's exactly doing. I think he's producing shows for somebody else. But Tim Coyne was, I think, fundamentally brilliant when it came to creating a show, a podcast, but at that time nobody really was listening.
Alban Brooke:What do you think it is that's different about podcasting from other media types like blogs and books and YouTube videos and social media? What is it that makes that connected so well with you and connects with so many people that listen to podcasts?
Elsie Escobar:The intimacy aspect of it I talk, I think, a lot to, at least for somebody who is that me that's more like me where I felt disconnected from my environment. I felt like I needed something. I also I didn't feel quite comfortable where I was living when this happened, you know, when podcasts came into my life, and what podcasting helped me figure out at that time in listening to them is that it expanded the world for me. I began to not only get to know people that were completely different than me, but also the fact that they were just like me. So it was this really weird thing that folks all over the world that were sharing stories that were so different than my life I could find feelings that were the same and that expanded my life in so many different ways than it ever had before.
Elsie Escobar:And the other aspect of it is that it gave me the privacy and I think that this is something that a lot of folks maybe look over is that, and especially from the podcast perspective, we all want people to be talking about our shows and be like, oh, my God, I just listened to whatever episode and we tell, like, tell your friends, right, but there's a lot of times when our listening is I feel it's a very private thing, like I don't want anybody to look at my listening list and then not because I'm ashamed of it or I don't want you to see, but I feel like it's a really it's a private thing for me.
Elsie Escobar:Maybe when people show you their record collection or they show you like their special bookshelf at home or whatever, like there's only some people that you want them to start browsing through that stuff, or like your special stuff, right, when you take them out. And that's how I feel with my podcasts and they've been able to help me go through so much of my life in a private setting where I feel like I have people talking with me in my ears and I'm able to process information and feelings and beliefs that I wouldn't be able to talk out loud with anybody, or if I had a question about something. I process it that way and I think about it in that way and it gives me the courage to be able to move forward from whatever that is and help me be a better person. And I think that it takes me to that private space. I think that's what it is. It's the intimacy of having somebody with you and not having the pressure to talking back.
Alban Brooke:I resonate with that in two different levels. The time that I realized that podcasting had, there was something different about podcasting, I was living overseas and teaching school in Haiti and listening to podcasts, feeling like, you know, some of the only English I would hear in a day would be listening to a podcast, and we didn't have enough internet to be able to do anything else but lightweight audio files. And I remember just feeling this very strong connection to you know, back then it was what you're saying iTunes. You could scroll through and look at all of the podcasts that were actually available and you got to hear stories and connect with the hosts. And then the other piece I know different periods of my life where I get really interested in something or I'm dealing with a particular problem. I end up subscribing to like four shows on that topic and then it's a way of like you want to learn about.
Alban Brooke:There was a time where I really wanted to learn a lot about stoicism, so I went and subscribed to every podcast about stoicism and listened to tons of episodes. And then, when we had our daughter, I wanted to listen to all these parenting podcasts. And each stage when I left law and started working in marketing. I wanted to listen to a bunch of marketing podcasts and tech podcasts to learn as much as I could about those areas, and so I've never heard anyone say it that way. But I totally agree. It's why it can be uncomfortable when people say what are your favorite podcasts and you may think, oh, it's a podcast about struggling with depression. I don't know if I want to share that with you right now.
Elsie Escobar:Yeah, and so they were obviously the ones that are staples that may be a little more shareable, for sure, but there have been experiences that I've had in listening to podcasts that have fundamentally shifted me as a person and it doesn't have to like thinking back about Tim Coyne's podcast and also there was another one, another show for LA podcasters, called Kush Things, I Say, and Jim Kushney, I think, is his name, and he had that show way back and both of those shows in some way shifted who I was and Kush actually I've been wanting to reach out to him at some point because he used to talk about, again, life in LA and all of these guys were doing what was fundamentally at that time storytelling podcasts, not in the way that we currently now. Storytelling is also mixed into narrative style. So you imagine that storytelling and narrative are more like the highly produced, you know podcasters or NPR types that are telling stories within, like one that comes into mind and it's, you know, the wonderful podcast 1619, where it even like at the beginning, in that first the entrance of that first episode for 1619 blew my mind just because of the audio feeling and the story, like that was real deep, like way deep, but these specific from LA podcasters were it's kind of like something that happened to them in their life, right, like something that happened to them in their everyday life. And they would get behind the microphone and they would just kind of embellish and dramatize their stories through their voices. So there wasn't extra like sounds and stuff, it was mainly them telling the story and just a normal story. But it was very specific. It's like they were acting, but not really because it sounded like they were just talking to you.
Elsie Escobar:Anyway, kush would say tell these stories about a man and women and from his point of view as a man, and he's distinctly oh my God, I can't believe. I want to say this. He was talking about like he has a wife or has a wife, and he was talking about coming into, like something happened and he mentioned how there was like this one. He was discussing about women and like he was like ladies, if your husband or boyfriend, no, if your boyfriend hasn't asked you to marry him after you know, insert whatever amount of years or whatever he's like, he's not going to marry you, he's not going to marry you. Just know that. And in the way that he was saying it, right At that time I had been with my person, with my ex, for over a decade and there was no conversation about anything related to getting married like at all.
Elsie Escobar:And I got really pissed off at him, like I was just like how dare he? He doesn't know me, he doesn't know us, like, mind you, he doesn't know me. I mean he knew me but he didn't know that I was listening to his show having this reaction, right, it's not like I did not reach back to him and say anything, I just was like pissed. I was pissed and I kept like, but I could not get his voice out of my head and the way that he went through relationships from the male point of view and all of this stuff, like I kept listening to him.
Elsie Escobar:He was completely opposite of me. He was obviously incredibly, you know, in a cis relationship, talking about that and that he being a man and all this stuff, and I was just like what a douchebag From within, right, and at the same time I was. He was dropping some truth man and nobody had ever talked to me that straight up about relationships from a man's point of view and it fundamentally shifted my mindset that eventually, fueled by his voice, I left that relationship, wow, and I'm in a really wonderful place, like I mean I love, I love my husband. I obviously have babies, I mean. I mean it's unbelievable and I trace it all the way back to that seed of him saying that in his show and it's one of those things where I just kind of want to turn back and be like that influence. That moment changed my whole life.
Alban Brooke:It's so interesting when you can actually pinpoint these like turning points in your life, specific things you hear and I don't know about you, but I personally love going back to the people who said the thing or like mentioned something offhandedly. One big change for me was listening to an early Freakonomics episode where they talked about the power of quitting and basically how we shouldn't moralize quitting, that you should quit things that aren't working for you and move on. But for some reason, we always have this like tendency to hold on and say, no, I can fix this thing. And I remember listening to it. I just graduated law school and I remember thinking like, yeah, of course everyone knows you should quit stuff if it's not working. That doesn't make any sense. I'm the kind of person who would quit and then fast forward like two years after that. I hate practicing law Like you're not standing.
Alban Brooke:It was everything that I didn't want to be. And I looked 10 years down the road and realized I would only become less of who I wanted to be in the future. And I remember that episode sat there in my head reminding me not only did you listen to this, but you were offended that it was even like had to be said because it was so obvious to you then. But now that I'm in it, I'm thinking well, I can't make less money and go work somewhere else. You know, I spent all this time going to law school and practicing law and doing all this work, and now I'm just going to throw it away. What if the next thing is just as bad or worse? And yeah, it's so interesting to hear you having kind of a similar experience with a podcast, kind of being a turning point and telling you you know, maybe sometimes they can tell us when it's time to move on to other things.
Elsie Escobar:Some of the things about that that are, I think, poignant as a listener and to inspire folks to listen to podcasts, are things like that right. It also, though, it's something that I really try to teach folks that are getting into podcaster or podcasters and that are constantly looking to grow their audience right, and I know how a lot of us and I value it as well feel that having a larger user you know, big stuff makes more stuff.
Alban Brooke:Right.
Elsie Escobar:You know, just whatever you get, you know you have more X, you get more Y. That's the way our culture is set up, which is one of the reasons why am I in my Instagram like right now I've like I don't do anything on Instagram at all, I just don't have time. But anyway, I have like a thing that says like we, something about like more is not does not equal better, but that's just something I'm trying to move forward and like really bring forth all the time and everything that I do. And so, thinking about it from the perspective of there's going to be a time when I listen to a podcast, like I did for Kush things, I said that obviously doesn't exist now, but maybe it did, but maybe I'm not a listener anymore, maybe I haven't listened in five years, I'm not a download for him, but yeah, he has impacted my life and caused all this, or like, essentially, who was the catalyst for this?
Alban Brooke:We're starting to touch on it a little bit. How you? You speak to tens of thousands of podcasters and you've influenced tens of thousands of podcasts and, I think, many of them. One thing they're all trying to figure out is how to get a bunch of downloads.
Elsie Escobar:Yeah.
Alban Brooke:How should we be thinking about that?
Elsie Escobar:So I always teach podcasting is an embodied experience and we are human beings that are in the act of listening, and that, I feel, is one of the fundamental differences within this kind of media. Right, and so, given that, as If you, I do feel very strongly that, as a podcaster somebody that's that's really, really wanting to grow their show that you need to listen to podcasts not all of them, not many, all the time, but you've got to engage in the act of listening to podcasts. You must Do it, and if you hate it, this is great, because then you can figure out what the points are of you resisting the listening, because many people are gonna go through that. If you have pain points when you are listening to a podcast that really bother, you Write those down, because that is probably what many folks are going through. If it gives you delight when you're listening. If you are, you know in.
Elsie Escobar:The opposite is true. If you, if there's something that really rocks your world, if you happen to have had something happen, because this happens all the time I'm in the middle of washing dishes usually I get triggered, and that's the other thing. We get triggered. We have habits of consumption and so we get triggered, particularly for me for listening to stuff. If I'm washing dishes that's one of the places that I listen to all the time that immediately gets triggered. If I start to wash dishes I'm like oh, where's my podcast?
Elsie Escobar:and I have to go find my podcast to listen. And then I'm listening to them and they're like, hey, if you want to do the thing, you got to sign up for the blah blah. And I'm like, oh crap, yeah. And I'm, my hands are all sudsy. I'm like, oh, I gotta, I gotta remember that, okay, and I'm washing, and I'm washing, and then, you know, my children come and then by the end of the day I completely forget, right? So there's no like, there's no direct like.
Elsie Escobar:When you're on the computer, sometimes you get somebody that Sends you the email and you immediately respond. Or, like you know Twitter, like we have, like we had a come, we've got conversations on Twitter and there's easier for me to respond that to you. Whereas if you were asking me a question in your podcast that you know that I'm listening to, I'd be like, oh my god, I have to listen, I have to remember to respond to Alvin Because he called me out on a show. Okay, you know. And it's like I, I'll forget, I will forget, and so the process of that relationship is Looks passive, it looks like they're not engaging with you, but there's a lot of people who are deeply embedded in that. You are deeply embedded in their life.
Elsie Escobar:Mm-hmm and sometimes it doesn't like just become magically a lot right. I don't know if you've seen this in terms of stats, because I was I've always liked to look at stats. I have access to a lot of stats as well and being able to see, like I'll go lurking if I see a show that's like doing really well or something like that and I want to see, like what their numbers are or if they're being featured in Apple podcast. I want to see what those numbers are. But I'm not curious about the numbers that are when they're being featured, I'm curious about the other numbers after they're being featured. So then, like I will look at those numbers like let's say, they're featured in February and I will just make a little note for myself and I'll go back and Check in three, four months later and it's always the same. You see this gigantic spike that tells you exactly how long they were featured in Apple podcast and then you see the same exact drop Right afterwards, unless there's an X factor, unless there's an X factor.
Alban Brooke:What's the X?
Elsie Escobar:factor, the X factor, usually has to do with the quality of the content, duh, and also the relevance of the topic at that time, which we can't. We can't know what that, what that's gonna be like. One of my favorite shows way back was Pantsuit politics, and they started with Libsyn way, way, way, way back and they started their show I think at the end of 2015, if I'm correct Right before the election, and they're the concept for Pantsuit politics is that it was one Republican, one Democrat, and at that time, too, they had a little thing that they said it was nuanced conversation. So they were really deep into kind Conversation with each other, super smart both of them are amazing and they were just talking with each other in a way that we often don't hear, let alone women, talking like this in a civilized manner, in depth, about Politics from two completely different points of view in one show and not yelling at each other, right. So all of that stuff was like, but when it started, obviously it was like Really intriguing.
Elsie Escobar:But then the election, the whole thing started to happen and the need for them, for that voice, was so just magic that it took it, just catapulted them and Continued to in mind. You, they're really good at what they're doing, so it's not like you know they're fantastic. But the timing of that you could not have timed it better, right? We end without knowledge of what was gonna happen in our world at that time, so the necessity for them was so huge and that's an X factor that I've seen time and time again, with a lot of shows that come out there. It's the right time, the right topic, and culture needs it at that time. The world needs this and Oftentimes it that that can't be repeated in that same way Exactly. You can't just like let's do another politics podcast, cuz it won't really have that same thing as when it first started that way.
Alban Brooke:I could think of an example on the buzz for outside we had. So it was a doctor who I think he was maybe an epidemiologist, but he was just like he would talk about different viruses and and try to explain disease and 2011 or 12 he maybe 11 he did an episode on Ebola, but Ebola was a really small thing and very few people knew about. So he talked, went in depth, talked about it and moved on 2013. He's frantically writing into support saying guys, I think there's a bot or something bad is happening. My podcast numbers like are broken. They look great and we dug in a little deeper like no, it's an episode from 2011. That is skyrocketing. And then actually, people are continuing to listen to your other episodes.
Alban Brooke:Well, what had happened was we had the Ebola epidemic and and when that happened, people were needing to learn about alright, what's happening here? How does this? Is it transmitted? What are the symptoms? What do you do? What do we need to do as a you know a world to combat this? And he already had that all out there. He was needed at that time. So I wouldn't recommend someone now hey, go put out a bunch of episodes about coronavirus and any potential diseases, because that's the. That is what worked in the past. It will be something different next time, but kind of creating this evergreen content. Stuff is really highly produced and Sometimes it does take getting lucky like you're having civilized discussions about politics and all of a sudden we have the least civilized election of all time and everyone goes, hey, maybe it would be nice to hear something from a different perspective.
Elsie Escobar:Yeah, so that's like what the X factor to me looks like. You know, and and it's Exp in the same way, the way marketing works, where there are those Different things, where, for me, marketing is more about visibility, it's more about getting to know a podcast or getting to be Exposed to that, even just the fact that this podcast exists is the first step and that's where I think most marketing lies.
Elsie Escobar:Within that, listenership is a totally it's a different thing, but at that point it's just that sense of expansion right, and that's what happens sometimes when you are featured in a lot of these Audio platforms, which I think is the most it's it's probably the least Obstacle-filled way to get more listeners to your show, to get more people who follow your show. Right, the that would be it. But for a lot of folks it's especially whenever you are featured within Apple Podcast or something. It is a taster. It's like people are like, oh, that looks neat, and they will just click on it and they will click on it and they may or may not listen to it. They may really like it and follow the show or they may just leave it there and most of the time they're just gonna leave it there because you're not for everyone.
Elsie Escobar:I was just thinking about you know. I mean I'm sure you have a show about podcasting that is, you know, bus sprout centric. I have a show about podcasting that's lips and centric, and so it's like my expectations of that show. I Think we're doing fine. You know what I mean. I don't have like let's, let's get thousands of listen because it's like, it's so Like I wouldn't want everybody to listen to my show. In fact, most people would probably listen and go. Like what is even happening here? Let? That's the worst thing I've ever heard, because it's it's not. Unless you know it, you're not gonna want to listen.
Alban Brooke:It's just I don't you know yeah, you need to know your audience, and part of if, when you really know your audience, you can cater the message to them, and that will often to people who aren't in the but in your target Audience will see it and go. This is it for me? Well, yeah, it's not. If you're a you know, if you're a bus sprout customer listening to the feed, you're gonna be confused when you hear we're working on lips and five, and here's the new feature that just came out, they're gonna go well. That's not applicable because I don't use that hosting provider and so, or, if somebody's not a podcaster at all and they're listening to it, they'll go well. What's all? What's up with all the podcast news that keeps getting talked about?
Elsie Escobar:Yeah, totally. I mean, and it mind you though I have. I mean I'm also incredibly obsessive about, about stuff, like one show that I fell in love with and now I'm totally obsessed with it, and I think it was like the psychographic why I was drawn in. But it was because it was called. It is it's one of my favorite shows. It's called the pen addict and I couldn't understand I couldn't wrap my head around because I saw it a lot how someone could talk for 60 to 90 minutes.
Alban Brooke:About. I listen to it.
Elsie Escobar:Yeah. So anyway, I Didn't get it because I saw I used to see it right way back. I'm like, how is that even a thing, right? And so then I did started to listen to it and I had no idea about pens, like zero idea, like nothing. I've always liked, you know, markers and drawing, and I always like notebooks and stationery. So I I do like that stuff. I've always been a fan of colored pens, but not like fancy pens and so. But in the process I just it, just it becomes my Happy place where I learned about all these things. But they're like my even. They're like sort of like washing my palette out of anything that is not.
Elsie Escobar:I'm not discounting that pens aren't important, but you know what it means hearing somebody be so passionate about a subject, I just get so riveted by it, even though I have no stake in the game. I'm just like this is so neat, I didn't know that that even existed and I just go about my business. But it has no. There's no stress involved, there's no like deeper thinking, like super thinking that I have to do. It's just like neat. I didn't know that paper existed. I like that. I think I'm gonna get that at some point. You know what I mean.
Alban Brooke:I have like there's a handful of podcasts. My favorite podcasts are all I feel like very heavy and very More like intellectual. I have to be really focused and paying attention. But then I have all these other podcasts that I like love because they're hey, I kind of need to break, I don't. I Just want to like listen to something kind of relax and I'm doing something else and I don't want to feel like, oh, I've got to rewind that and re-listen to that part to understand.
Alban Brooke:Take notes, and it sounds like that's what the Panatic is doing for you.
Elsie Escobar:Yeah, there's like there's not it's low stakes.
Elsie Escobar:We need some low stakes podcasts of course, and again, mind you, there are folks that love the Panatic podcast because it is high stakes, so it's there, so you move it in different places. They might also have a show that is totally low stakes for them, but maybe not pens, right, like they're just like really into this stuff and part of it is the, the Passion that you bring to your stuff is what's gonna make people stay and sometimes they will be converted to it and and they'll like really dive in, and then sometimes they won't, and I, and I feel that that's where what coming back to like Download numbers and all of that you, you again, I feel that you have to solve your own, your own. You have to really dive into what keeps you listening, like in the way that we're talking about it, like what the types of people that are listening, it's okay if they only listen once a month, it's okay, you, but you would keep doing your own thing. You have to figure out why you're podcasting, right, and if it really is worth it for you. And, in the same way that you were talking about quitting, what I've seen now, since I've been here for so long and in the space for so long, is Is that there is a cycle for all of us as humans, that where we go and we trans, we evolve Into a different person, not even not a different person, a more evolved person of who we are. We change, we just have different feelings, and so if we look back at five years before now, I can see how I've grown.
Elsie Escobar:I see that I'm not interested in some of the things that I was interested before, and I always feel and I felt like maybe you don't want to talk about the thing that you started to. You were so into when you first started podcasting and so it's okay for you to quit it. It's okay. I know that for me, I still love to talk about. I can't not talk like that's what's a big trigger thing for me. I found a place where I'm like I got to talk about this again. I still love it so much.
Elsie Escobar:It hasn't stopped since I began because it fills me in so many different ways but there are a lot of foot but, like my yoga podcast, I had to let it go. It's still painful for me to even say that, because I haven't produced anything since 2013. But it's a huge part of who I am as a yoga person, but I don't want to teach it Like I can't. It's such a hard lift. I'm like, oh man, if I have to go behind the mic and teach a class, I just don't have, I don't have it in me Like I just know it. That's not who I am anymore. It's in my past, it's part of me, but it's not the thing that leads.
Elsie Escobar:And so I think in podcasting, that happens to a lot of folks where they're really passionate about a specific thing and they start to talk about it and then it's over and it's even worse. Albin, I don't know if you've had this interaction with somebody when they're doing really well with their show, and it's actually incredibly. I'm using air quotes now successful, and they have all the things, the download numbers, like the funnels or whatever. Everybody's covering them and all this stuff and they're like I just I'm done. I'm done, I don't want to talk about this anymore.
Alban Brooke:Yeah, I mean privately. I've had this conversations and you go to things like podcast movement and you talk to people there and you realize there's some podcasters who are doing incredibly well because they love their subject and some they loved it and they've now podcasted about it for four years and they're like I don't love this the same way I used to, but I don't know if I can like stop because I've hit this level and now I have this loyal audience that keeps wanting to hear about it. What do you? What would you say? I mean, what do you say to podcasters when they hit that point where they've got up, they're actually successful and maybe the thing that they started with the podcast about they're not interested in doing anymore.
Elsie Escobar:Oh my gosh. I would say the same thing that you shared with me just a little while before about the whole quitting thing. One of the reasons that I stepped away from LC's yoga class as well was it's hard for me to feel like I'd let that go because of, really, the interaction that I had with my people that used to come to my classes. I had a very rabid following and there were folks who I was a huge part of their lives, of their actual, like well-being, and I realized that there was a part of me that didn't want to be that for them. I was taking care of myself. I had just had two babies and the reason that I stopped is because I could no longer hold them and my actual offspring. I could not split myself like that. I had enough with my little ones. In that respect, I had to be honest with the fact that I was only doing this for them, and that's when you have to start to think about it, where it's like are you really just doing it for them and are they going to be okay?
Elsie Escobar:I tried to transition out of it, maybe not in the best way, because I kept thinking I was going to come back and then I never did. You have to be honest whether or not this is going to be your life. This is in the same way you were talking about. I really hate law. Maybe you started at the beginning and you were like, oh, and then all of a sudden you're like I just don't want to be here. Then you stop, and I know that that's hard, in the same way that I left Los Angeles. I left LA because I just could no longer do and live the way that I was living and I really thought there was no way that I could leave my life as it was at that time. I really thought there was no out. Then I just left. I mean, there were many other circumstances but I literally picked up and I left Los Angeles within a month, moved out and have not come back other than to visit my parents.
Elsie Escobar:once I left everything, an entire career. I had a career, I had it all, everything. I just picked up and left, the best thing I could have ever done. I don't know what I would be doing if I was in LA at this time. It was just a way too much, but in that same way it's going to be okay. I think that this is when we start to think, now that our industry is now moving beyond, we're moving into what year 16 or 17, where we have the industry now has legacy to it.
Elsie Escobar:Now you can put shows away. You can say that's the time of X, you don't have to keep doing the show. It can be done. If you still love podcasting, you can get behind the mic. You could try to do something else, but I don't know. I just feel that that's going to take away from you growing as a human being. You know who I was thinking about, this Alvin, with Alexander Cooper from Call Her Daddy. She's really great at doing what she's doing right now, being the age that she is, and in that and her audience obviously is a younger audience, a younger demographic, all the way across the board. She's really targeted to those folks. But she's not going to stay 26, 27 forever. Think about what happened with us between 27 and 30 and who we were and who we ended up being. How about when we were 32, 33? I know that was a huge growth that I had at that time. Can you imagine if somebody held you at 26 or 27 and then you had to continue to be that person the whole little time?
Alban Brooke:That was the period that I was very excited to leave. That was the years of doing 12 hours a day of legal work. I was happy to move on from that.
Elsie Escobar:The person, what you talked about, how you talked, how you interacted with people. Maybe I'm not wanting you to disclose any other stuff, but the way that you were dating or seeing people or going out or your friends so much changes With the podcast.
Alban Brooke:Should people the way they think about it is, if you do have one of these shows that's very focused on your personality and maybe part of that personality is like, hey, I'm this particular age, going through this particular time and people that resonate with it, should you just be updating the show constantly as you are changing, and just say, yeah, we're not talking about dating and partying as much Now, we're talking about yoga and we're talking about parenthood. This is the way you're growing up with the podcast with me and you just are shifting who the audience is.
Elsie Escobar:That's exactly how I would approach it, because if not, you're gonna get stuck in that You'll have to revisit it, especially if it's around that, if it's a specific topic, I think if you're covering a subject matter and it's less about you going through things, then absolutely.
Elsie Escobar:I mean even one of the folks that I've listened to for a long time and also who is somebody that I mentor Casey Orority is her name and her show is Joyful Courage. It was a parenting podcast. When I met her, she had smaller little babies and she is a positive parenting coach and it was great you know great show from the beginning and talking about positive parenting primarily for like two, three, four-year-olds. Right, her kids were slightly older and then all of a sudden, you know one of the last times that I worked with her, she was going through a real hard time because she didn't wanna talk about two, three four-year-olds anymore because her kids were tweens and teenagers and she was so much more interested in that because that was her life at that time. She was relearning so many things and it's a completely different thing to parent a four-year-old than it is a teenager in many ways not all, but many.
Elsie Escobar:And so but so she wanted to move. She goes I don't know what to do because everybody's asking me about toddlers and I don't want to talk about toddlers. So she shifted her whole thing and she started to teach her listeners this is where I'm moving forward and so we worked it out so that she was able to then send folks like, if you're interested about this, you can listen to these episodes, and then here and then she started to guide folks to these are other coaches that are focusing in on your age group. And then she facilitated that transition to other places so that she could really stay doing what she's doing, and she's still doing her show. Mind you, the title of her show also allows for that expansion, because if it would have been like the toddler show, you know, or a parenting two-year-olds, then it's a little harder to move to a teenage conversation. So it gives it the extension for it, you know.
Alban Brooke:One thing I tell people a lot, especially a stumbling block I see a lot with new podcasters is show art and the title, because they're like they have this feeling that they're etching this in stone and this is the title, this is the art, this is locked in forever. And I'm like I mean, it's not because you could just change the title and it updates to everyone's app and they'll go huh, that's a new title and some pretty popular podcasts have done this. And you tell people, hey, just to let you know, the artwork's gonna change, it's still the same podcast or it's a very similar podcast. Oh, the name, I'm gonna change the name. This name never really made, you know, doesn't make much sense because how the podcast is changing, so I'm gonna make that move. You know, we don't have to feel like everything is locked in because, just like people, podcasts can evolve too.
Elsie Escobar:Yeah, and it's so much better than you know if you published a book, right, if you published a book, you can change the cover usually, but I mean, I guess you could change the title too and you could get a reprint, but it's so much easier.
Alban Brooke:It's much easier With a podcast.
Elsie Escobar:It's so much easier. But then there are folks that get really caught up with their RSS feed having their old branding on it and a lot of the time I'm like who's gonna see that? Honestly, who's gonna look at your RSS feed and go, oh my God, it has a different name on it, like I don't know? I mean, I haven't looked at anybody's RSS feed in a long time, meaning, you know, without minus work, right, that's a different story. But if, like somebody's, like when you're subscribing to people's shows, usually you just do it on your app.
Alban Brooke:On the Buzzsprout side, I think we don't even support people having custom names for their RSS feed. The only thing we do is it's just a string of numbers, so the numbers never change, so people never get too attached to them. But for anybody who's kind of confused, libsyn has the ability for you to actually have it to be like. It would be something like the feedlibsyncom.
Elsie Escobar:Yeah, it's made like for the. Yeah, it's for the. What do you call it? It's the slug or like the what you sign up for. That is part of the. You know, like when you sign up for like Instagram and it's like Instagram.
Alban Brooke:Part of that URL Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah, blah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and so.
Elsie Escobar:But even like things like FeedBurner or you know all of that stuff where it used to be, at least it was a thing before it has to be, because I remember doing that I'm like what am I gonna make that?
Alban Brooke:URL.
Elsie Escobar:And even in FeedBurner, when I burned my feed, because I did that way back as well which is a program that burns feeds and you don't even I'm sure most people are like what does burn, but anyway, it created a specific feed that people could you know, subscribe to.
Elsie Escobar:That was just the numbers and stuff, or the letter, or whatever you wanted to name it. Like you could name it, you could put words in it, and so folks would get very attached to that. But given that, though, yes, you can change your title, you can change all the things 2014,.
Alban Brooke:You started Sheep Podcasts. Started out as a Facebook group for women in podcasting and has grown to so much more. Can you tell us about Sheep Podcast and how it started?
Elsie Escobar:Yeah, it started. You know, I was Jessica. Jessica started my partner, my business partner. She started NBFF, she started this Women who Podcast or Women, I don't know, whatever it was something like that and podcasters. Because what happened is when we would attend conferences, we would hook up with a lot of the women, would get together and we would have lunch and all that stuff and it felt so comfortable and yummy that we felt like we, or she felt, really I wanna have a space where we continue conversations like this outside of conferences and also not the existing groups that were happening at that time. So she started that just for herself, essentially with a small group of people. She invited the people that we had lunch with and then I brought all these people because I had all of these other names, and then I just started to add people to the group and all the stuff.
Elsie Escobar:And then, as that started to grow, Jess and I kind of pitched her on Sheep Podcast because everybody in the group was asking we need to have a show about podcasting for women and blah, blah, blah the stuff. And we're like, oh my God, we gotta do it, we gotta do it before they do it. And so we started a show under the idea that we would talk about podcasting from the women's point of view and really address women-centric conversations, but what ended up happening is again, because this is what happens. That was the idea we had. Jess and I didn't really know each other very much and so that was the concept, but as we got to know each other and became really close friends, it essentially morphed into the Jess and Elsie show, sprinkled with podcasting. So it's like we talk about our lives and it's really just lots of fun. It's more fun than anything. We almost rarely stay on topic. We do cover podcasting, news information tools, things like that but we don't do it hard-hitting and we're not very tactical about it. We try, but we always fail, so it might as well go with the flow, right. So that's what it is.
Elsie Escobar:But, mind you, that continued to expand. We have now over 20,000 women in the Facebook group, which is crazy. And then Jess really championed putting she Podcasts live out, which is a conference that is very much centering women's voices and women in non-binary podcasts. So that's. The other thing, too is that we expanded from women-centric only to women and non-binary in our group, because I really felt that women have started to get a little more expansion in podcasting as a whole and there is more of our voices out there.
Elsie Escobar:But there's always a need for the same type of expression and the same type of support for those who oftentimes are not heard, which is why we started the podcast, and non-binary folks right now are often not seen and they don't really fit in any different place sometimes and we thought this is possibly the best place for folks to come in to our group, even though it is called she Podcasts. But remember it's Jess and I that run the group which is she Podcasts, and you can always evolve and move, so we have expanded to include that. Anyway, that said, the conference itself is very much about making sure everybody on stage is a woman or non-binary. There are no men speaking at our conference and even though you can attend if you're a man, it is just centered on women. So you'll have a great time, but, again, the content isn't, for it's very centric to the folks that we are serving and that is it, and it's been an incredible experience to be able to expand and grow all of that Aspect of it.
Elsie Escobar:We also have the she Podcasts Super Squad, which is a membership community, because we have found that our time becomes more and more precious, so we can't really just be in the group in the same way. I used to be obsessed with that group. I was in there all day, every day, and as my life has changed again, my desire to be in Facebook has lessened so much that I just don't want to and I want to cultivate richer, deeper relationships and, in all honesty, alvin, I don't know if you feel this, but I really don't want to answer the same questions over and over again about the same stuff.
Alban Brooke:You yeah, there's a you have like a limit of maybe like a thousand times. You can recommend the Samsung Q2U or the ATR 2100. It's what you're like I'm. I'm starting to burn out, yeah.
Elsie Escobar:So I have a harder time with that and so I would like to have folks come into the SuperSquare where I could have deeper relationships, and I know that the time that I spend deep diving into why the Q2U is probably one of the best microphones to start with can really be appreciated because of all the nuance I could bring to that conversation in so many different places than writing it out right Somewhere. So the SuperSquare is where I get to really just let you know or really invest my time in this specificity of who you are as a podcaster versus just random people, because I feel like sometimes people in the Facebook group they're not invested in the answer, sometimes they don't, they just want all the answers and then they still don't know. And I'd rather everybody sift through the crud, not the crud, because there's a lot of people who are really smart too.
Elsie Escobar:So I'm not, I'm not, I don't mean it that way, I mean just get the answer that you want. Because I know right now I'm just like should I use this tool or that tool? Tell me, and I will do that Like I don't need to. You know, I don't need all the stuff and I need an answer. I'm going to go like you tell me please.
Alban Brooke:For anyone who hasn't listened to Sheep podcast the podcast it's absolutely hilarious. You and Jessica have like the best chemistry, and I'd listened to the podcast before, but I listened to a few episodes prepping for our conversation and I just found myself like cracking up, like laughing out loud multiple times in episode. I think that it is true, once you hit a certain point where you know you know you're a co-host, you have really good chemistry and you're both comfortable like taking the conversation off on a tangent for a little bit and then coming back to the topics that you have. It's super well done and I recommend it to anybody who's looking for a good podcast. And even if you're not a huge podcast junkie like we are, it's still really good.
Alban Brooke:It could fit that perfect like with the pen addict is, for it could fit that like hey, it's a low stakes environment, it's going to be fun, You're going to enjoy it and you'll get to hear some stories. This is a conversation that's been coming up for me, at least in a few, a few times recently. What is the experience for women podcasters At least? How is that different than it probably is for male podcasters?
Elsie Escobar:I think part of it is and I am generalizing. This is not like like set in stone, but I'm kind of moving more into like the historical gender roles and the way that culture treats those that are women or girls. I'm not even sure if this is happening right now to our younger folks like my, like my children, but the exposure I think overall to tech is not quite there. Like the way that I went into it, being able to be comfortable around technology was very a huge challenge for me. I didn't understand getting over my own self when, when I would ask a question and then they would give me the actual answer, and then I would read the answer and it looked like it would jibber, like I was like I don't even know what that means, like I would have to. I would get the answer from really kind people. So it wasn't. They were, they were not mansplaining to me, they literally just gave me the answer. I was like I don't even know what that is, so I would have to go search for that. And even then searching for that, I couldn't understand, and I think that was that's possibly one of the bigger issues when it comes to podcasting, because there's like microphones, there's like you know, like all the names for the things, and USB and XLR and what that is, and there's a mixer and there's the thing and you have to do a double ender and a mix minus and it's like what the heck is all that stuff? And I think the questions that we have around it is it feels a little like that's kind of not cool. And the other thing is, you know, I was just talking to a new app or product that's coming out and I kind of talk with them a little bit about the way that they were positioning the product. That was incredibly like, focused on what most people want, which is making money, right, and it was all like make the money, make money, podcasting you're going to be rich, you know and which most people want to get rich, which is true, and they want to make money podcasting.
Elsie Escobar:Yes, that is true, but in fact, our folks are slightly less so. In that same way, they're more focused on their voices and impact and connecting with people and caring about their audience at a really deep level and having so many things that they're doing and they can't really do that. And so that experience for I feel, in the way that the world is set up, sometimes women are not supported to do things like this. Where we get the tools? I would tend to say like I don't know if I want to invest in a microphone. Like it took me forever to buy expensive what I considered expensive pieces of hardware because I'd rather spend it on clothes for my children Not to say that it's not true, but like I feel that like my husband just came in the other day and he's like oh yeah, I got another $300 router because he's trying to set up, like all this whole thing, and I'm like no, the routers has to be like $190 because the other was like you know what I mean.
Elsie Escobar:Like he's just like get the best thing, get the thing that works. This is like the optimal blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, given the circumstances of how I'm going to be doing the thing, like I have. So I have a lot more in my own head, which, again, I'm overgeneralizing here, but that feels to me that it's more of a challenge. It's just the basics of the technology and even the overall how everything works.
Elsie Escobar:We are better, I feel, at crafting the message, the story, the audience, the content. It's much deeper and richer. But when it comes to the concept, like it's amazingly fleshed out, right, and it's like, wow, the image, the artwork is fantastic, the title is great, the description, the content, you're nailing it Amazing. We're like yay. And then they're like, okay, I'm getting ready for my interview in a couple hours, how do you record somebody? And you're like, holy crap, right. And then they want, like just that's the easiest, oh, my God, you know it's like wait a minute, so it's. You know. It's things like that where, like, I just got a question, not to I don't want to go on too long, but I just got a question from somebody and this is a really great question. But it was like how do I record two people in the same space, in the same place, with two USB microphones and one computer? No extra stuff, like no buying new things.
Alban Brooke:It's going to be tough.
Elsie Escobar:Yeah, and so exactly, and so when and when we go to and she podcasts, what we do to to support this is that we do our very our darnest way to figure out the solution, given what they have, given what we have, versus, well, you need to get a focus right. You know two, I two, and you have to get yourself either another couple microphones so that they actually have an XLR, or you have to have a USB to. You know what I mean. And then that's what the answer is usually and they're like whoa, what is that? Whereas I would end up sometimes going like just take out your iPhone and put it in between you guys and record to some degree. Right, I mean, there's obviously other answers, but if it's the basic, the thing that's going to get you to stay podcasting, that's where I feel like you just got to go. It's okay to let go of the dogma. So I think we, at least in she podcast, we don't, we're not stuck in the dogma of podcasting, which sometimes becomes a little crazy.
Alban Brooke:Yeah, it can be a little overbearing. If you're a new podcaster and the first thing you hear is we need to have this particular setup and you need to be doing this to your audio and you need to be promoting on these seven social media platforms and you need to be cutting up your episode clips and editing with this and doing this mastering and you're like, oh my gosh, like this, I don't. This isn't a full-time job. I want to share stories about, you know, my experiences doing whatever, whatever passion or hobby I have I want to just teach yoga classes on a podcast. I don't want to become a audio mastering genius.
Elsie Escobar:Right, exactly.
Alban Brooke:Yeah, as podcasting has continued to grow, we definitely need to let go more of that dogma and accept like podcasts, like everything kind of, have to start out imperfect. It's not going to be this perfect thing when it starts and it's only through the process of doing the thing whether it be podcasting or anything else it's the process of doing it that actually lets us grow and develop to actually become masters of our craft, rather than, you know, thinking you're gonna put all the work in on the front and become a great editor without ever putting out an episode or something like.
Elsie Escobar:Right, yeah, I mean you can't the end.
Alban Brooke:One thing that I have heard that I'd love for you to speak to is women in podcasting just get a lot more grief. It seems like I've talked to Kate Casey, who does a show called Reality Life. With Kate Casey she talked about how many more women in podcasting get just negative reviews. It's not a ton of like four star, it's every once in a while there's somebody goes out of their way to leave a pretty nasty review or get a DM on Twitter. That's just kind of just mean about the podcast and I mean I can tell you from my perspective, every once in a while I get like one person who's a little rude, but it's very rare and most of them, you know, comes off like the person themselves has got something going on. It never feels like it's reflecting on me. Do you see that? And then what advice do you give to women if they're experiencing that?
Elsie Escobar:Oh God, yes, I do, I see that and you know, for me, actually, the first two, my very first reviews, for both Elsie's Yoga class and for the feed, were scathing and they were all about me and my voice like, straight up, wow, the first review that I had. For the feed, I put an episode zero out and this was 2013. But I put a 20, yeah, I put it out. It was like literally, I think it was like eight minutes. It really was a it's coming. You know, this is a quick introduction of who I was, what you to expect and obviously at that time I didn't know what to expect, but it was just like that real lighthearted, just the way that I generally am right and I put that out there. First interview, it said something like who is this girl? Who does she think she is? She sounds like she's, and then they said something about my setup that it didn't sound right and where's Rob?
Alban Brooke:At this point you'd been podcasting for seven years. Yeah, I went back and actually listened to episode one of the feed earlier today and it's a professional podcast. Like you're not a new podcaster by any means, this is a podcast that's. You've been doing it for seven years and it shows.
Elsie Escobar:Yeah.
Alban Brooke:It's so. How do you respond to that stuff?
Elsie Escobar:I've got. Obviously, that hurt my feelings a lot. That hurt, it hurts, it hurts. It makes you feel because it's a personal attack. I'm telling you it's not like, it's not like I hate the show, it's a personal attack. And when she podcast has gotten bad reviews, usually it's who do they think? That's the other thing, who do you think you are? Is the response that we often get and it's like I don't, like, we don't think we're anybody, like we don't think we're anybody. And it does hurt. And she podcast for LC's yoga class, it was more like she talks too much. Mind you, it is a yoga class and I did talk too much, so that's. But in that respect it's just about, or she really likes to hear herself talk and I think part of it is that oftentimes, again, culturally even my mom said this to me she's like you talk too much, Too much about my podcast, about she podcasts. And I was like mom, it's a podcast, that's the point.
Alban Brooke:There's not supposed to be a bunch of dead space, all right.
Elsie Escobar:And so what I would say about that is part of it is well, I don't look at reviews, I just don't. I don't because I can't handle them very well, especially the negativity that comes from them, and that because they really strike me deep and I know that they don't have. I know all the things. I know all the things that I say to my people, but part of it is that I just try to. I don't need to see them, I don't need to look at them, and if I do get like outreach from somebody that is super, super negative, I do my very best to turn things around. I'm not somebody who's going to dismiss people and can be combative with them. I'm not a combative person. I try to be very emphatic or like to listen to what the truth is behind what they're saying to me. Not to say that I'm constantly doing that, but I do like to hear whenever criticism or feedback comes my way critical feedback. I try to see what the truth is on that and I try to adjust whether or not I believe that to be true, and then I get a little feedback on it. Comes to that Now, when it's a thing that's just about me and my voice and all that stuff. I still have a hard time dealing with that because I'm sure I'm not everybody's cup of tea either.
Elsie Escobar:Oh, there she goes again. Or I mean, I'm a normal. I know myself too. When I'm editing I like I cut out half of the giggles that I have because I tend to giggle a lot. So I'm getting better at cutting out my giggles by my own choice. But it's part of it is that we have to really understand to continue to go through that process and to do everything that you possibly can to keep you, to keep you going. That's it to me. It's moving away any obstacle in your way that's going to in some way diminish the work that you are doing in the world. I don't want to have that. Jess is the opposite. She likes to read stuff and she likes to be like, she likes to fight it.
Alban Brooke:Not the fighter. Jess is definitely the fighter.
Elsie Escobar:Yeah, she's the fighter, she will call you out. She reads the stuff on air and I'm always like, oh, and I'm not the fighter, but do whatever fills you and do whatever you need to feel your voice moving out there. I personally don't like to read any kind of reviews, negative or positive. So all those services like are my friend Daniel Lois with my podcast reviews and stuff like that I don't want to see it. I don't care about that, I don't want to see it.
Elsie Escobar:I don't like it, so I just don't. That's how I handle it.
Alban Brooke:Yeah, I think that's a pretty intuitive thing to notice that if it's not healthy, it's not adding something to your life and all it really is doing is providing like an attack vector for people just to throw negativity into your life. Yeah, it's not useful, it's not out of fine, and you also, you have tons of ways to contact people who are in your target demographic. It's not like you don't respond or talk to people. People can reach out to you in the she Podcast group, in your private community. You have friendships. You have tons of people who are telling you.
Alban Brooke:Here's what I love about any of your podcasts the reviews being from who knows who was Likely. It's probably a person who the podcast is not intended for. They have a very different personality. They want a very serious show, they want to get more into the tech weeds or they want whatever. It is Great like hear this podcast. If it's not for you, no problem. If there's podcasts you love, you can actually be the positive side of this, which is go leave some positive reviews. Actually send an email to your favorite podcasters. Let them know that you really enjoy their content, because that really does make a big difference, especially when we had someone in the Buzzsprout community group who her first review was a two star review and she asked the entire group hey, I think I might just shut down the podcast. If this is, how am I gonna be received?
Elsie Escobar:Ugh, so annoying yeah.
Alban Brooke:Just like leaving the positive reviews will help combat anybody's bad behavior, that there'll be some positivity there too. So you may be the review that helps someone keep going. Elsie, I've talked to you, kind of kept you 30 minutes over time. Thank you so much for being generous through time and staying. Where could people find you if they wanna learn more about you?
Elsie Escobar:I'm all in, obviously, sheep Podcast. If you come to Sheep Podcast Live, it would be amazing. All of the links are at sheepodcastcom, and I think that the most active I am is on Twitter. It's the easiest for me to engage or disengage on Twitter. It's the fastest place, in that I'm the LC Escobar there. Other than that, if you do wanna just keep up with me, listen to my shows, because that's about the only place that I'm sharing that specifically, and now I might be doing a little bit more lives here and there. Just to just inside the group, though, of the Sheep Podcasts Facebook group. If so, if you're a woman or non-binary, please join our group. It's really lovely. It's a fantastic place to be. I like it when I go in there. I just don't wanna be there.
Alban Brooke:Well, Elsie, on that final note, thank you so much for joining me and we'll have to get to you and maybe Jessica at the same time, both back on the podcast sometime.
Elsie Escobar:Oh my God, that's crazy, that's crazy talk.