Get ready to welcome Pat Flynn, the podcasting powerhouse, bestselling author, and host of the Smart Passive Income podcast. A master at understanding his audience, Pat harnesses the power of podcasting to forge deep connections and build relationships. His journey from fear to fluency reveals the appeal of podcasting as a medium that breaks the mold and facilitates accessible content anytime, anywhere.
Our conversation takes an exciting turn as we dive into the gripping concept of Superfans. Flynn's book, 'Superfans', serves as the cornerstone for our discussion on the unparalleled attention span of podcast listeners and the benefits it yields for creators. We unravel the intricate process of finding and nurturing your tribe of devout listeners, and how podcasting scales intimacy – a critical element for safeguarding your business's future.
As we conclude our enlightening chat, Flynn shares his wisdom on planning and launching a successful podcast. From the significance of niche selection and audience understanding to the potential of generating revenue through podcast interviews – it's all here. We wrap up with Flynn's perspective on preparing guest questions through genuine curiosity, crafting a 'layoff lifeline', and rescuing interviews that might not go as planned. A treasure trove of priceless insights awaits to fuel your podcasting journey. Don't miss out!
More resources from Pat:
Subscribe to Buzzsprout Conversations on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app.
Do you know somebody we should interview on Buzzzsprout Conversations? Reach out on Twitter.
Get ready to welcome Pat Flynn, the podcasting powerhouse, bestselling author, and host of the Smart Passive Income podcast. A master at understanding his audience, Pat harnesses the power of podcasting to forge deep connections and build relationships. His journey from fear to fluency reveals the appeal of podcasting as a medium that breaks the mold and facilitates accessible content anytime, anywhere.
Our conversation takes an exciting turn as we dive into the gripping concept of Superfans. Flynn's book, 'Superfans', serves as the cornerstone for our discussion on the unparalleled attention span of podcast listeners and the benefits it yields for creators. We unravel the intricate process of finding and nurturing your tribe of devout listeners, and how podcasting scales intimacy – a critical element for safeguarding your business's future.
As we conclude our enlightening chat, Flynn shares his wisdom on planning and launching a successful podcast. From the significance of niche selection and audience understanding to the potential of generating revenue through podcast interviews – it's all here. We wrap up with Flynn's perspective on preparing guest questions through genuine curiosity, crafting a 'layoff lifeline', and rescuing interviews that might not go as planned. A treasure trove of priceless insights awaits to fuel your podcasting journey. Don't miss out!
More resources from Pat:
Subscribe to Buzzsprout Conversations on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app.
Do you know somebody we should interview on Buzzzsprout Conversations? Reach out on Twitter.
You have to remember that every number of download, every number of play, that is a actual human being on the other end that is actually listening to your show. Imagine if you had those 250 people, or even a hundred people in a room with you at a conference and you are on stage and you get to present to them. Now it feels a little bit different.
Speaker 2:Hey everybody, my guest today is Pat Flynn. Pat is a father, he's a businessman, he's a husband, he's a bestselling author, he's a YouTuber entrepreneur, but the thing you probably know him the best for is podcasting, specifically his podcast Smart Passive Income, which has over 450 episodes. He's been doing it for over 11 years and it has over 60 million downloads, and I'm so excited to bring him on to the show just to share his wisdom and what he's learned over 11 years of podcasting. He's also a podcasting educator, and it's probably not an exaggeration to say he may have taught more podcasters how to podcast than anybody else in the world. That's because he has the most popular YouTube videos on podcasts, he has one of the most popular blogs on podcasting and he has the most popular course on podcasting. So through all of those different avenues, he probably has taught more people how to podcast than anybody else, and so I'm so excited to share Pat's insights with you today. Pat, thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me. I didn't even think about the fact that I may be the person who's helped more people start podcasting than anybody else. It's kind of scary actually, but really cool at the same time.
Speaker 2:We often ask people when they sign up for Buzzsprout how they learned about us and how they learned about podcasting, and I'm shocked how often you are the answer to both of those. A lot of people, you know they get on Smart Passive Income, they start listening to it and I think that's kind of the, you know, the entry point for them to realize how exciting the world of podcasting can be. Yeah, I mean, that's how I got into podcasting.
Speaker 1:It was a show that I listened to that inspired me to want to start my show, and I think my audience is doing a lot better job than I was, because when I first wanted to start a podcast, this was December of 2008,. I bought all the equipment and my first episode didn't come out until July 2010 because I was too afraid, I was too worried, I was too scared. If only I'd started sooner, I'd be that much further ahead. But anyway, it's never too late, that's for sure, and there's so many great shows coming out now. It's so exciting. Well, you do not have an experience that is that far different from a lot of podcasters.
Speaker 2:You know every year that I go to conferences. It breaks my heart that I see people that I knew from previous years and I ask them how the show's going and they're kind of still stuck on some of the same points and I got a lot of these stumbling blocks lined up in this interview that I'd want you to just kind of knock down. But first you've got a growing YouTube channel, a awesome blog and the podcast. What is special about the podcast, it's the intimacy with the person who's listening on the other end, it's the intimacy with the person who's a guest.
Speaker 1:On the other end, if I'm in the audience, I'm not going to be in the audience, and if I'm doing an interview, and it's long form content that people can listen to anywhere in the car, on a walk, on the go. They can even download episodes, obviously ahead of time, on their device, from wherever they're subscribed, and listen while on a plane. It's just content that you can't really consume anywhere else and it's passive listening that becomes active action in a way. I hope nobody's watching videos while driving. I hope nobody is, you know, reading a blog post while trying to also, you know, do a bench press or something like that. But you can listen anytime and anywhere and that's the coolest part about it. It's that access to people in those places but ask access to people in those places for way longer than anywhere else and through that you can't help but build a relationship with your listeners. It's just such an amazing, magical thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's something incredible when you look at the attention span that people have for podcasts versus other forms of media. Tiktok at seven seconds on YouTube. We're lucky to get three minutes. At least on our channel, we're lucky to get three minutes. I looked at some of our blogs and the average time is about four minutes. I mean, what do you think it is for podcasting? For us it's something like 30, 40 minutes are average listen times for our podcasts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's ridiculous, right, that's. That's so crazy. That, to me, just makes complete sense why everybody should have a podcast Anybody who actually cares about their brand, anybody who wants to spread and share their message. There's, obviously, things that are missing currently in the podcasting space that we would love to have that we do have access to on YouTube, certain kinds of analytics, certain kinds of reach algorithms that are in play, but I foresee a future where, within podcasting, that all exists and it's those who get an earlier who are going to win.
Speaker 2:You wrote a book called Superfans, the easy way to stand out, grow your tribe and build a successful business. And there it is right there.
Speaker 1:I was giving this away earlier and I had one right in front of me. I don't just like hold my book with me. It's funny.
Speaker 2:Mine is at the office and I was so bummed that I didn't have it here to flip up, so that was perfect timing. This idea of Superfans, I don't know. I, from my perspective, reading it, I don't know if you could have written it or we've been written the same way if you weren't a podcaster. Can you talk about how podcasting influenced that book and how we should find our Superfans when creating a podcast?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Podcasting is absolutely. I mean, podcasting makes this way into the book several times because those are the people who have shown up and people who have supported the brand over the years. And when you look back at my history, I actually started out as a blogger. I started blogging in 2008 about my layoff and then transitioning into entrepreneurship and a very successful business. I created the architecture field and, just, I was very transparent with that, blogging three times a week. And, of course, like I said, I wanted to start a podcast, but I was too afraid but finally mustered up the courage to publish my first episode in July of 2010.
Speaker 1:Later that year, 2010, I went to a conference, a blog world expo in Las Vegas. That conference no longer exists, but I went there and nobody talked about the blog. Everybody talked about the podcast. It was podcast, is podcast that? Oh, that story you told about this or that. One time you mentioned this and I was like, okay, cool, but that's, I'm only podcasting every other week. It's all I could fit in at the time, but I'm blogging three times a week. What about that blog poster route? What about this? And they're like oh, yeah, facebook tips, okay, cool, whatever, but yeah, but that story you told on the show was epic, and I was like, wow, I think I need to flip the script a little bit. I think I need to do less blogging and more podcasting, because it seems to be the thing that everybody's talking about and remembering and the lessons are being learned with context and story behind it. And, honestly, it was just so much fun and much easier to create too, and I learned over time firsthand with conversations with people that it's the podcast that helps them become a fan.
Speaker 1:I have a. I'm going to turn the camera around. I hope it doesn't break, but if I turn the camera around, you'll see a board there in the back with all these thank you notes on it, and that's just a fraction of the ones that I've collected over time. 99% of them mentioned the podcast. There's just something about hearing a person's voice on the go in your daily life that you can't help but build a connection and then want to support that person back, whether that support comes in the form of purchasing books and products.
Speaker 1:But some of the best support I've gotten has been in the form of sharing and referrals, connections to people who I need help from, and some of the best kind of feedback and superfan-like things that I've had. The experience with my audience with it comes in the form of feedback. People wouldn't give you feedback if they didn't actually care about the thing that you're building. To me, it's all about the connection. That's what I'm trying to provide for my audience with regards to entrepreneurship and the struggles of entrepreneurship and whatnot. The cool thing is the podcast medium is a beautiful place to tell those stories that allow people to connect. That's the first step. Is that connection?
Speaker 2:One thing I've heard you say in multiple interviews that I love is podcasting is the best way to scale intimacy, because there's something so special about going for a jog and listening to someone tell stories, because we are so story-driven as people Just hear story after story about what kind of struggles people are working through in their lives. The connection you build is so different than you would build from just watching YouTube videos which I love YouTube and I love creating for YouTube but there is a different level of intimacy that we create with podcasts that is, to me, business insurance for life.
Speaker 1:That's future-proofing your business. This book, as you'll find if you read it, it's nothing new. Really, it's not revolutionary, it's just. Here's what we should be focusing on if we really care about the future of our business. Because technology changes, these walled gardens are getting put up, algorithms are changing all the time, but the thing is, if you have people who care about you, doesn't matter what's happening in tech. They're going to follow you and find you and support you. That's why I think superfans are really important, not because you can make more money or whatever, but this is how you stay alive, truly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, youtube decides to change the algorithm If Twitter wants to try to get more ads, so they don't give you as much of a reach. If any of these algorithms change, the superfans are the ones who crawl over those algorithms to find you. They don't get an episode. They call and they're frustrated and they're emailing in because they're saying hey, I actually listen to SPI every Tuesday when I'm driving to work and I missed it today. I'm wondering where it is. Is everything okay? Those are the people that we want to connect with and that's the level of intimacy we have to shoot for, or else all we're really getting are likes from somebody who doesn't really remember your name and you don't matter a whole lot to them in the long run.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean. That's why it's important to be yourself and to be comfortable with who you are. As we often hear, it's like your vibe is going to attract your tribe, the people who will want to connect with yourself and other people like you too. I think that's really important. It can be very nerve-wracking at times because it's very scary to put yourself out there. When you put yourself out there, especially online, you invite perhaps the other side to come and comment on it, or the trolls and people who are disrespectful. But the truth is, if you build superfans and you have a reason why people should stand together with you, you might not even know those trolls exist because your superfans are already batting them away for you.
Speaker 2:And they can say things that you could never say yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or if you say them it's like of course you're going to say that first Somebody who is not you, their words are going to mean much, much more for sure.
Speaker 2:I like you saying putting yourself out there, because that raises one of these first stumbling blocks. I know everyone hits and that's perfectionism. We listen to SPI, we listen to Guy Raz, we listen to cereal and they're so well produced and put together that when we record ourselves we sound goofy and we aren't confident, we don't know what we're doing. Can you talk to me a little bit about maybe a time that perfectionism got in the way for you and how you overcame it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're talking literally 2008 to 2010. That whole two year period was me thinking that I had to be perfect, and any sort of thing that showed me that wasn't perfect was an excuse for me to go okay, I'm not ready yet, right, and I'll put this off till later, till I am perfect or till I can get ready. And for me in particular, it was hard because I grew up in a household where I was supposed to be perfect in school, like I would come home with a 97% of my tests and I'd work for the next three, four hours at home with my parents to make sure I understood to never do that, make those mistakes again. So I was conditioned to believe it has to be perfect before I put it out there or show anybody, and as a result of that, it was never going to come out. The podcast was never going to come out until I started to talk to a number of people in the space who were very supportive and said no, you just need like, you will never be perfect. Number one, that's, the first thing to know is like there's no such thing. That is a myth, because you can always improve, you can always do better. But the truth is that there were people who probably needed the information that I was going to be sharing on my show, but I was.
Speaker 1:I was letting my own feared perfectionist ways get in the way of that, and that felt then when I switched that story to that it felt very selfish, like it's very selfish of me to think that, okay, I have to make it perfect, it has to be perfect to my standards, in order to help people. That's not true, right? Imagine somebody is like literally drowning outside of a boat that you're standing on and they're like please help me. Right that's. Some of our listeners are actually asking for our help and drowning in whatever problem or circumstance they might be in.
Speaker 1:Imagine you saying I'd love to help you, but my life vest isn't buckled all the way yet, or, you know, the waves are a little bit too big. I want to wait till the waves are a little bit smaller, so I have a little bit more stability before I reach out and help you. That's such a selfish, almost a jerk way to think about it. But that's actually what we're doing in in in this world that we just don't see that because we're not interacting with that person. But those people exist. They need you, they're waiting for you and they're drowning in something, and you can save them right now. And the truth is and I've heard this from Johnny Dumas, another proficient podcaster, who once said you have to be a disaster before you become the master- I love that.
Speaker 2:You just have to.
Speaker 1:I love it too, because I listened to my first few episodes. They were absolute disasters. But you get better each time If you consciously just go okay, well, that happened. What can I improve on in a micro way the next time? You don't have to go like huge improvement next time, but a little bit of improvement here and there 1% better every time. Atomic habits like you're going to see massive returns over time if you stay consistent and you keep going.
Speaker 2:Sure, I heard you talk. It was either three or four years ago at traffic and conversion in San Diego and you did something kind of blew my mind and I believe it's the podcast you played your very first episode from the stage.
Speaker 1:It was actually not my first episode. It was before my first episode. It was actually a recording that I recorded in December of 2008, after I bought all my equipment. I had a small following on my blog and I proclaimed to my small little world that I was going to come out with a podcast again December of 2008. And you know the story July 2010 is when it finally came out. But I played that audio file that announced to the world and it was like it's like one of the most embarrassing things that I could share, but I share it because we all got to start at the beginning.
Speaker 2:I mean that listening to that was game changing for me to hear then and I still think of it now, because it's so easy to think. You probably were born to be a podcaster and you were immediately good at it and the only experience I ever had of your podcast was going to be these well polished episodes. And then, hearing it, I heard my own voice and I heard my own insecurities and it's very powerful to see that in someone who you know. I know the future. 11 years after that was recorded, you were going to be a massively successful podcaster and then. It's nice to be able to see that because I can look at myself and go oh wait, in 11 years of work on this, I could be at that level if Pat didn't have there wasn't something special when it started.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I always get the kind of feedback when I play that, which is why I'm not afraid to share it, but it does Make me cringe like crazy. Every single time I just hear how little confidence I had and it stopped me right for a year and a half. I was so scared. But when I started to get the notes and the thank you emails and the Responses from people who were listening to even my earlier episodes that weren't well polished, where I had no idea what I was doing, I was like, wow, you can still make a difference and you don't have to be perfect. Let's keep going, but let's try to make it better. And then now you know, 11, 12 years later, it's like a well-oiled machine and I feel like I'm in a groove. I'm always looking to improve still, but I feel very comfortable. It literally took years before that, though, like it wasn't like oh, two episodes in, I'm good now. No, it was years of discomfort.
Speaker 2:You. You have to be the disaster before you can ever become the master. If there's somebody who's listening and I hope we're kind of making the case for podcasting it's got this level of intimacy that is really unmatched anywhere else. People will become your super fans and the best way to connect with them is to kind of be in their ear for week after week. For 45 minutes a week or however long the podcast is. You can get a greater level of intimacy, build those super fans and the fact that you feel you know the person who's the best party pot could feel insecure right now or could feel a little bit of an posture syndrome. That's totally normal. Now that we've got all that out of the way, somebody goes okay, I'm ready to do it. I want to start a podcast. Where should they start?
Speaker 1:I think it's really important to understand and try to figure out what your show is gonna be about, to be able to potentially even position it before we start hitting record and start talking to people, or even even before we start reaching out to People to potentially come on our show. I think it's really important to have an understanding of, well, what is this gonna be about? How might we describe this to others? How might we figure out what the title is like? Getting those little details are gonna be really key and I love that part because it's you know, I teach podcasting in a number of ways. I have a one of the top, if not the top, youtube video on how to start a podcast 1.5 or something million views, which is just insane and I have a Course with a number of students. Thousands of students have taken it. Sometimes the coolest thing that can happen is the name and just choosing the name and it becomes real. At that moment it's like, wow, here's the show. Let's, let's, let's start talking about it with other people, let's start seeding it, let's start imagining it, let's start designing the logo and all this other stuff like getting the title nailed down is really, really exciting because it starts to make it real. I think Seth Godin said you know, when you put a name to something, it becomes a real. So put a name to it and it doesn't have to be the name and just a name, at least for now, just so you can move forward, and the name can always change, of course, and it does feel very permanent. Yes, I do hear a lot of people who use not knowing the name is an excuse and I remember talking to somebody and I was like you said you wanted to start a podcast a long time ago. What happened? There's like yeah, I never found a good name for it. I'm like you let that stop. You like, really, I think there's something deeper going on here. But I think that number one, understanding what your show is about and then number two, I always recommend for people to kind of consider okay, try to come up with 25 episodes. Like just you know that you don't have to nail the title or anything, just what might you talk about when you start hitting record? And if you can get 25, then okay, you're pretty good, because you might have like a half years worth if you're going weekly, worth of content that you could kind of keep going with, versus what I know a lot of people do is they just jump into it and there are two episodes in and they're like I don't even know what I'm gonna talk about next week. We'd. I don't ever want to be there again. I was there for years where every time I hit publish it was like Not only did I have a huge weight lift out off my shoulder, but I had like next week's episode weight come back on me like immediately, and then I have to scramble to figure out what I wanted to talk about again.
Speaker 1:So, planning ahead, getting used to kind of having a little bit of an editorial calendar, but at least just writing down 25 Ideas for shows or guests that you might be able to have on the show, and where do those come from? They should just come from either your expertise and knowledge about the topic and things that you feel like would be useful to share, but, even more importantly, they can be answers to people's questions or topics that are hot within the space that you're in right now. You shouldn't have a. If it's a prop, if it's a podcast that you can stick with, you Shouldn't have any problem thinking about that, and if you do have a problem coming up with that many ideas.
Speaker 1:Well then we need to rethink the show, because you eventually get to the point where you're gonna need to kind of come up with new stuff, and that's really important. So that that's kind of where I would start kind of getting into the weeds a little bit about okay, well, what is this actually gonna look like? And it's really neat because once you start to consider what those shows are gonna be about, you can start imagining can I, you know, have a conversation about that? How might I be able to speak about that topic? And, you know, you can start to dig a little bit deeper in there. But at the same time, you might actually have a new idea for what the show might become.
Speaker 1:Right, once you start putting things into place, your initial idea is start to change in morph, and it's better to do do that now, before we do all this stuff. And then, finally, what I would do is talk to people about the potential of you creating the show. You have an idea for the name. You have an idea of what the the show is gonna be about and maybe some of the episodes, to talk about it With people. If you have fans already. Let them, let them in on the process. It's a fun thing for them to be a part of talk about it with some of your friends and colleagues, just to kind of get a gut reaction, to see if they can poke any holes in it, or have them start to challenge you on it so that you can answer those questions. Uh likely your future listeners are going to already be asking themselves Before they click play.
Speaker 2:So I think that that's where we start you've got you to a YouTube channel with tons of great videos on podcasting. You do a webinar called podcasting the smart way. I think you have one coming up. In a few months you have one of those webinars coming up. You have a blog that ranks right near the top for all the how to start a podcast keywords that I printed it out. It's like 20 pages and it's just full of the tips that you're really gonna want to know Before you start the podcasting process. And then the one that a lot of bus crowd customers have done is Power-up podcasting, which is the course you put together. That really is a to z, everything you need to know about podcasting. You can take it at your own pace or with somebody else, but I know we have lots of people on bus route who've taken those courses, webinars, everything and have learned a ton from you because of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much. I mean the course was built from a need in my audience that I didn't even know was there until people started asking me non-stop for it. I actually was recommending somebody else's course for a while because I was just like I have a YouTube video. It's that's kind of doing the job. But you know, here we take you step-by-step videos on, like this plugs into this, like down to.
Speaker 1:The one of our favorite students Is dr B. She's over 60 years old, with deathly afraid of technology, but she really had a voice and she wanted to share some information with people who are living with ADHD, which is her specialty. So the course she took it on her own, over 60 years old, was able to get through it. Now she has a podcast and she's in, probably by now, nearly over a hundred countries helping people around the world with ADHD and is becoming sort of a thought leader in that space, which is really cool. I interviewed her soon after she started her show and she said that she she has a map behind her computer when every time she sees she has a new listener, she puts a pinup on that map and at that moment she only had 33. I say only, but that's a lot. And she, her message is being spread, and if she can do it, anybody can do it. So yeah, power of podcasting. Would love to have you as a student, and If not, no worries.
Speaker 2:What tips would you give to a beginner podcaster? We've kind of talked about the. You just need to start publishing. Don't hold yourself back. Don't be the person in the life boat say my hair doesn't look perfect for this life, jumping off the boat to save you moment. What tips would you give that beginner podcaster, if you?
Speaker 1:can maybe give them two or three. Get used to recording behind the microphone. It's super awkward, it's. It's so weird to like talk to yourself on a microphone and and and. What can help is imagining your ideal listener, the person that you're speaking to, or even a person that you have once spoken to who an episode might be for. If you consider that, it's a little bit easier when you start to notice that there's other people on the other end. If you want to do an interview show, start with people who you already know, so it's not weird and awkward for you at the start. There's likely people in your network or colleagues, or even at least a friend of a friend, who might be able and willing to come on the show To share some information.
Speaker 1:When, with regards to interviews, I know it could be very scary. On one hand, yeah, it's kind of easy because you just have to ask questions, but on the other hand, you're driving the show. It's it's really up to you, and my favorite piece of advice was just be genuinely curious. If you're doing an interview, just be genuinely curious. It's gonna guide your questions, it's gonna guide the follow-up questions. It's gonna guide you in terms of you know, as long as you know the purpose of that episode and what you want a listener to end up At after, then sort of all signs point to that, so that could be really key and really helpful.
Speaker 1:I think marketing is a very, very important component of podcasting that's often overlooked. Most people focus on Okay, let's just get the show out and then we find our listeners, right. But I like to take the approach of okay, imagine you have listeners, let's build a show for them, right? I think it was a Seth Grote and quote that was like that's very similar to that. He said you know, don't Find customers for your products, find products for your customers. And the same thing goes with your listeners. Like, don't build a Podcast and then try to find listeners, build a podcast for your listeners and, and that can be really key.
Speaker 1:And I think seeding the idea that you're gonna come out with a podcast can be great because it, number One, lets people know about it ahead of time so they're not like surprised or blind by it, sided by it later. It also holds you accountable, because one of the best things that we teach in our course is like pick a date, pick a launch date a Month or two at least ahead of time, so that you have some time to build hype and build the business and build the podcast. Get all the systems in place, use buzz sprout and all that good stuff, and Then you'll have enough time to build, perhaps a launch marketing team, like a team of listeners who maybe get early access to the show ahead of time, so you can launch it and you'll already have reviews on day one from those people who are Probably gonna be super fanatical about the fact that they get early access to this. Get your friends and family on board, let them know about it and ask them if they know anybody who might be interested in these topics to let them know about it too.
Speaker 1:Other tips I'm just brain dumping right now. That's that's.
Speaker 2:I love it Because every one of these tips are. There's like a handful of people that it's like the tip that they need to hear and we cut a couple of the the mouth. That is perfectly okay, because these are all great, this is great stuff.
Speaker 1:Make sure that when you launch you launch with. I recommend launching with three episodes, like on day one when you launch, because that way a person who listens now has more to listen to. That increases your download numbers. It increases the likelihood that they're gonna be Subscriber, increases the likelihood that they might leave a review because they've had more episodes. Maybe a person is more interested in episode three. First that's their one, that's bringing them in because of a good title, and then they go three, one, two or three, two, one or two, one, three, whatever. There's just more opportunity there. And Number two, I wouldn't worry. So this is the biggest tip.
Speaker 1:Yes, the numbers are important. Having downloads that you know you're gonna look at your download numbers, it's. I'm not gonna say don't look at your stats or it's not about the stats. Of course stats are important, but you have to remember that every number of download, every number of play, that is a actual human being on the other end that is actually listening to your show. So I know a lot of podcasters who are like yeah, I only get like 250 downloads per episode. It's really hard. I'm not encouraged because my friend who also started a podcast has a hundred thousand downloads per month, and I'm just not feeling it like. I don't think my podcast is successful.
Speaker 1:Well, imagine if you had those 250 people, or even a hundred people, in a room with you at a conference and you are on stage and you get to present to them. Now it feels a little bit different. What's the difference? There is no difference, it's just it's actually you're actually in a more intimate setting than if you were on stage because you're actually in their ear.
Speaker 1:So when you imagine that you can actually start to relate to and start to speak to those people who are in that audience in that way, and Not focus so much on the fact that you don't have giant numbers, but the fact that you have human beings who are listening on the other end and that's who you're doing this for and when you provide value, when you show up and serve first, you're gonna be rewarded for that, and if you're trying to build a business out of this, your earnings are a byproduct of how well you serve your audience.
Speaker 1:So so that's the biggest tip, because it's gonna be, for many people, very discouraging when, in fact, this is actually a super great start and you can't compare yourself to another podcaster because you both have different stories, you have different Circumstances, you have different audiences, different mechanisms to find people. You got to compare yourself to yourself in your last episode, to yourself last month, to yourself last year. If you start playing that comparison game like it's important to know that, yes, you can look at other people and get inspired and motivated, but if you start to change that story from I'm not good enough or why isn't mine like theirs, that's a very dangerous game to play and you know, I know so many people quit because of that and that's not cool.
Speaker 2:It is super interesting when you think about podcast downloads and you go. The average podcast is only getting something about 37 plays per episode, and a lot of podcasters are discouraged by that number. But had they been invited to go give a talk at the local Rotary Club or to some group that was interested in their topic, they would show up every week. I would show up every week. If 37 people were going to be there for me to talk to, I would do it, and the fact that I can do it actually in the comfort of my own home, wearing sweatpants and being behind a microphone, that should be a plus, not a negative, and so it's so good to switch our mindset and go. These aren't just numbers, they're incrementing.
Speaker 1:They're actual, real people who are listening and engaging with the message that we have for the world and again, in every episode, trying to improve, trying to test the boundaries a little bit, trying to maybe get a little bit uncomfortable. I think if you were to stay in your comfort zone with relation to podcasting, it's probably meaning you're not going to push yourself hard enough, in which case you're probably just creating average or imitation type episodes. Push yourself, stand for something, get that message out there and get people to follow you and stand up with you for something. I think that's another important thing, just with relation to business and content creation in general. A lot of times we try to play it safe because we're worried about upsetting people, but if you don't stand up for something, then what do you stand for To quote Hamilton, in fact and then how will people stand with you? Right? So that's pretty key as well. Other things collaborating with other podcasters One of the best things you can do getting on another person's show and having not just the ability to get in front of an audience who likely doesn't know you yet mostly, but also get an endorsement from people who have already earned that trust with that audience is absolutely huge. So more collaborations within the world of podcasting, I think, is absolutely important. And then, when it comes to things like monetization and whatnot.
Speaker 1:I know that a lot of us are starting podcasts because we wanted to do some things for our business and we want to make money through ads and things like that. The ad game is going to take a while. You need a significant number of people listening to your show every time to have a really good conversation with advertisers. Now, that's not to say you can't have advertisers with a small group. I know some people who do have advertisers for people who just have 100 or 200 downloads per episode, but it's because that product is so well positioned for those people. They earn that trust. It's a quality listener and I think a lot of advertisers are getting privy to the fact that. You know, podcast listeners are some of the most quality types of people, of audiences, that exist out there because of the connection that they have with the host and that endorsement means so much.
Speaker 1:But there's other things like affiliate marketing, where you can recommend a product, even in episode one, so long as it again serves that audience.
Speaker 1:You can potentially bring people from a podcast to an email list to survey them and ask more questions so you can determine what might be a product or a service that you might be able to create on top of that to help them.
Speaker 1:And starting out small with just helping one person is where I would start versus okay, let's try to have a million-dollar launch thanks to the podcast. So all that to say it is a long-term game. Podcasting is something that you're not going to create a podcast and tomorrow you're going to see millions of dollars in sales or a huge land rush of people. It can happen and it has happened before, but in general, you should take the approach of. This is now a new extension of my brand and a way for me to share my voice and connect with others, and when you do that, you get people to start to know, like and trust you and perhaps even find you first too as a result of the show, and you can just again make magic with that and help people in so many different ways that you couldn't even imagine.
Speaker 2:One of the examples I love from somebody on Buzzsprout is he was only getting maybe 150 plays per episode, but his podcast was about setting up call centers for businesses and that was what he did for his business. He would help you go in and help people set up a call center. Well, that is a very, very, very focused business and there's probably not a whole lot of people that are interested in that at all. It's super focused and because his sales cycle is mostly super long, it made sense for him to do this for a long time before he ever got any clients. And then when we interviewed him, he said it's actually the best marketing I've ever done.
Speaker 2:He was getting known as the voice in his industry. He was becoming the industry expert. He was getting paid speaking gigs and he said people that I'm chasing I've chased for years started listening to my show and when they got tired of trying to set up the call center themselves, they reached out to me and go. We're even listening to you for a few months and you obviously understand your stuff. Would you just set ours up, because they built that trust forever and he's going wait, there are only 150 people, but if they're the right 150 people, then that is plenty. That's all that you need to make the magic happen. Those are your super fans, the people you need to connect with. It can really work even at those numbers.
Speaker 1:And if you're trying to get for super fans, it's going to be so much easier if you niche down, if you stay focused like that. And, as I often say, the riches are in the niches and I know it's pronounced niches, but it doesn't rhyme as well. So, when you niche down, yes, you are taking away the potential reach of your podcast, but what happens is you also create a tight circle for people to come within. And if you were to consider, like the story of like, if you go to the mall right, I haven't been to a mall in like over a year, which is super weird. But you know, there's all these different shoe stores there's a walking shoe store, there's an athlete's foot, there's a shoe store for people who run, there's a shoe store for people who there's like the walking shoe company. Literally, that's their niche.
Speaker 1:And if you are a marathon runner, for example, are you going to go to the place where all the shoes exist, like a Walmart or a shoe pavilion or something? Or are you going to go to the place where you know you can get that expert advice for somebody who is going to give you the best shoe in the product and also other things that you might need that you might not even know. You're probably going to go to the specialty and a lot of podcasters I know are afraid of niching down because they're afraid of losing out on potential listeners. They're afraid of pigeonholing themselves into that one thing, and I get that. That makes sense. But the truth is it's going to be so much easier to establish your brand. It's going to be so much less competition that you have to worry about and you can become the go-to person in that micro world much, much faster. And then you have options.
Speaker 1:When you become known for something, you have options and if you wanted to branch out, you could. I know some people who started a podcast about something super micro and then they start branching out. Right, it's one inch wide, one mile deep, and now it's two inches wide, one mile deep, three inches wide, one mile deep. But here's the funny thing Most of my podcasting students who go niche first to become the go-to person, to become that expert, to become well known in that space, they end up liking it so much that they just stay there. And now they're one inch wide, two mile deep, one inch wide, three mile deep. Now, on top of a podcast and a course, they now have events, they now have masterminds, they now have a paid membership community, all serving the same little space and, of course, people who are that niche and that connected often find each other.
Speaker 1:And so now what's going to happen is your marketing is also going to take care of itself, because people who are within that small little space typically find and know and hang out with each other and they start talking, and then they'll talk about you. Nobody ever goes like oh yeah, you're running too Cool, you should go to Walmart to get your running shoes. I go. No, there's a store on Convoy Street in San Diego called Roadrunner. If you need to run your marathon, that's where you're going. Look out for Brian, because he's the one who helped me. Right, it's like that's how specific it can be.
Speaker 2:We know that this works in the product space. I mean, I just showed the Switch pod, but I think like 3M. If I ask someone, what does 3M make, most people are actually going to stumble because they make everything they go. I don't know what they're known for. It's like they make all the sticky adhesive materials that hold things together and they make paints and solvents and all sorts of stuff. But if I say, hey, what does Squadcast do?
Speaker 2:Anybody who's in podcasting knows they help you record audio and video long distance. We're using it right now because they do one thing and they do it really well and when you occupy a single thing in someone's mind, then they will know what you do and they have the ability to easily explain you to their friends and everyone in their life. But if you try to be everything because you think, oh, now I have more opportunities for people to learn about me, you just fade into the background noise of life and they go. Oh yeah, I know of the name Proctor and Gamble. I'm not really sure what they do. Well, they do everything in every store, but you don't really know that brand super well because when you do everything you kind of do nothing.
Speaker 1:That's so true. That is absolutely key. So start small, start niche. This speaks to an article that actually inspired super fans that I read back in the day, called A Thousand True Fans, by Kevin Kelly, and he basically says you don't need a blockbuster hit to do very, very well for yourself. If you're a musician, an artist, an entrepreneur, what have you? You just need a thousand true fans, and that's what I would recommend for podcasters. Can you get just your thousand true fans? I mean, start with a hundred and then go up to a thousand. That's really all you need. Because if you imagine a true fan and this is what Kevin Kelly says, if we do some math here a true fan being you know that person who's going to literally listen to every episode of yours the moment it comes out. Or if you come out with a product, they're buying it before they even read the sales page. Or if they're you are going to be speaking at an event somewhere, they're going to drive eight hours because it's just you know they have to, that's a super, that's a true fan, that's a super fan.
Speaker 1:If you imagine a super fan paying you for your art, your craft, your service, whatever it is, a hundred dollars a year. That's less than $10 a month. That's on. That's on like low end. I know a lot of people, and myself included, who are fans of things who spend way more money than that. A hundred dollars a year times a thousand true fans, you have a six figure business. That's your. That's your hundred thousand dollars. You know taxes and all that stuff aside. That's like really impressive to understand that you just need a thousand people. So, breaking this down even further, that's a fan a day for less than three years.
Speaker 2:That's crazy. That is just those numbers to think that in three years you could be at a hundred thousand dollars being making that in your business and all you have to do is add one person who really cares enough to pay a hundred dollars a year. Those numbers are remarkable. That's on the low end remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's on the low end, if we can shift gears for a second. You have done some awesome podcast interviews. You've interviewed people. I mean just to quote a few Tim Ferriss, amy Porterfield, gary Vander, chuck. You've done tons of these very cool interviews and I'd like to just pick your brain about podcast interviews. First, how do you identify who you want to interview and then how do you go about pitching them and bringing them on to the show?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think for anybody out there, you want to first think about the audience and what's most valuable to them, and that's often what I think about. And now I'm at a state where, you know, a lot of people are coming to me and that's great. I say no more than I say yes, for sure. But I always consider, okay, well, how does this benefit my audience, how does this bring something new, et cetera. Now, if you're just starting out, what I'd recommend is you come up with the themes or the ideas that you feel would be most helpful for your audience and then you try to find people to support that idea, to bring them in to be the expert to talk about that thing, because you might not be the expert on that subject, right, maybe you can have a conversation about it and you can both have different perspectives, or what have you. So that's where I would start, with essentially the transformation of the audience member in mind first, and then backing into okay, well, who might be able to support that? Because, honestly, you know, yes, you mentioned Tim Ferriss, gary Vaynerchuk, a lot of these big names, but my highest downloaded podcast episodes are episodes where People don't even know who those people are until they start listening. Really. Example yeah, episode 122 was Jason, with Shane and Jocelyn Sam's, two teachers from Kentucky, super, humble, super, you know, they have the Kentucky an accent and Shane told the story of when he first heard of smart, passive income. He was on a lawnmower and stopped mid-mode to talk to Jocelyn about what they're gonna do in their business to start something. They ended up quitting their jobs as teachers to help teachers and they now have a multi-million dollar business. And people got so Inspired by that because those two people, shane and Jocelyn Sam's, were listeners just like everybody else and they just took action Versus.
Speaker 1:When Tim comes on, he's talking about all is like biohacking and whatever, and that's great, but he's in a. He's in a different tier than everybody else listening. Right, it's inspirational, it's exciting and it's it's crazy and it's cool because he's the author of the four-hour work week, but at the same time it's like, oh well, that's Tim. Of course he could do that. I don't know I could do that. So that episode with Shane and Jocelyn Sam's has actually more downloads than both Gary Vaynerchuk's and Tim Ferriss's episodes combined.
Speaker 1:Like that just tells you about it's not about necessarily who you have on the show and, yes, when you have a celebrity on the show, that does bring a little clout right. It helps you Increase your authority through just association. It does a little bit help your download numbers. In most cases, however, having those celebrities on the show, they're not going to share it. They've already been on every other show and if they were to share everything, it would just be too much noise for their people. So I wouldn't even expect that. But people who are listening, who resonate with a podcast, who love it and who want to share it because it's so helpful and so meaningful and so On, point, that will give you more downloads, in fact, over time. So oftentimes again, I look for the story, not the person.
Speaker 2:So start with the transformation that's gonna happen for your audience, think about who can Support that transformation and then you reach out to them rather than thinking well, the most popular person that I can imagine is Some political figure, celebrity and trying to land them and then hope that there's a story there.
Speaker 1:I mean we're not Joe Rogan, right? I mean that's, that's Joe Rogan's position and he brings these celebrities on and that in of itself will bring views. But for the regular podcast or like us, it's about the Lessons and the transformation and the person who can help best support that, whether it's a solo show and it's you and your experiences or the stories you pull out from somebody else in their experiences, and I think that's cool because it makes interviewing more accessible, it makes interviewing more doable and oftentimes we Sometimes stumble or we might feel a little bit of a little bit of anxiety talking to somebody who's quote-unquote so high profile versus Talking to one of your own students. In fact, if one of, if, like, let's say, you have a course for like, I'll tell, like in my own example, episode 275 of the smart passive income podcast, I interviewed three of my students from power-up podcasting and this was before it launched publicly. I just invited a couple beta students on and and I interviewed with dr B was one of them dr Shannon Irvin and then Robin Kerry from Disney Travel Secrets podcast, and I'll tell you that was the most profitable podcast episode I'd ever published, because Not only did I introduce people to the course, through that.
Speaker 1:But my own students who took it, who shared what life was like before, which was exactly what everybody else listening was feeling, and now what life is like after, and how great it is, and how many more people they have in their audiences and how their business has grown 342 percent that's what Rob said as a result of starting his podcast and the connector being me. Well, now everybody wants to go to where they went and that was through me. Now Don't invite your students or clients on to and ask them questions like hey, tell me why my business was awesome, have. That just naturally come out from the juxtaposition of what was life like before and how much of a struggle it was, or with what the challenges were, and and now what life is like, what the results have been like. You're naturally going to come up anyway and it becomes the most beautiful testimonial and you already have access to these people and if you've already helped these people your students, clients, customers, etc. They're going to likely be very, very, very To say yes to coming on the show but also making you look really, really good.
Speaker 1:And I remember when we sold a course power podcasting the same week that episode came out. That's why we timed it that way. That course did a quarter million dollars in sales Over 150k was Was connected back to the podcast. Wow, we even had like that's insane, right, like that's Insane. And we had so many people email us and say, hey, I'm in your course. Now you can thank dr B she, she's the one who convinced me and I was like, oh yes, this is, this is cool.
Speaker 2:That's me. That's so affirming to hear that, just that, that, the power of people hearing those stories, because the stories that resonate with us the most are the stories we can see ourselves in. And I, like you're saying we. I can't see myself in Tim Ferriss's shoes. You know, I hear about all this stuff and it sounds like he's so far away from the life that I live. It's just, it's enjoyable, but it's more fantasy than reality. And if we hear somebody like dr B, he says I actually don't really like tech, but I got this mic and I figured out how to plug it together and I go wait, I don't really like tech, I don't understand how to plug things together. Wait, this is what transformation that I could go through. It's. There's just so much power in that. Can I ask how you prepare for these interviews? You know that you're going to interview. Maybe it is the celebrity, maybe it is somebody in your personal life or a customer. How do you prepare for those interviews?
Speaker 1:I actually don't do a ton of preparation. It's more of a mental preparation in terms of, okay, how am I going to be as energetic as possible during the interview, as attentive as possible? That's what I'm preparing. I want to be attentive so that I can be as curious as possible. If I'm tired, I mean, I'm not gonna have as great of an episode. So my preparation is how much energy do I have? And I have. I like literally like did I eat healthy beforehand? Did I get a lot of water beforehand? So I can just be at the top of my game? Right, it's. This is a sport to me and I got to perform.
Speaker 1:But it's not necessarily okay. If I'm having an author on, I'm not gonna read their book, ten books and then be able to have this like intelligent conversation, because personally I'm not a fan of when I listen to a podcast episode and it sounds like these two People are talking to each other and they're speaking this language that I don't even know. Yet from an audience's perspective, I would much rather represent my audience, and if I'm to represent my audience, I'm not gonna have read this book yet. That's not to say I don't invite people on whose book I've already read, but I don't. I don't do that kind of preparation, that that that it's not. I don't want to say over the top again, this is just my style. Other people have their style. But number one, it saves me a lot of time, and number two, if I can just channel my audience and I can ask questions that they have. And my favorite comment is when I get people to go Pat, you just seem to ask the same questions that I'm thinking and that's how I know I'm doing it right, because I'm doing this again on behalf of and for my audience.
Speaker 1:Now there was a interview I did not too long ago here on squadcast with Chris Foss, the author of Never Split the Difference 23 year plus or something FBI hostage negotiator Super, yeah, super intense and I was definitely getting in my own head about, okay, this might be like, like this is an FBI negotiator that I'm asking questions to.
Speaker 1:I'm, in fact, sort of like you know, negotiating with him to answer these questions like this. I just got in my own head about it and it started off a little like because I would ask questions and he would just have, like you know, a sentence to answer and then it would pause and I'd be like, okay anyway, like, and, and I kept trying to go a little bit deeper and deeper and all of a sudden, like ten minutes in, we were flowing, we were good, and sometimes it just takes like just getting started and realizing that you just have to have a conversation. And Again, me being very genuinely curious, I think he appreciated some of the questions I had and continued to go deeper with. But it's mostly an energy prep versus a knowledge prep.
Speaker 2:To be honest, like I again, I do know where I want my audience to end up and that's important because that guides the questions, that guides Most of the conversation you know this transformation that you're hoping the audience goes through, and then most of the rest of the prep is Making sure you're in a healthy place so that you can be totally focused and If the conversation goes one way, and it's interesting that you can keep going down that road- yeah, I let it go down that road every once in a while and again it's my job as the host to Steer the boat, if you will, and sometimes we go off course and you know I have to judge and and understand.
Speaker 1:Okay, how might the audience feel about this and do I think they want to keep going or do I Think we want to get back on? Obviously I don't want to leave anything hanging. I don't want to promise something and then not deliver on that. That's not cool. So I often have a notepad near me in case a person who I'm speaking to has a lot of great things to say. But then they kind of move on. But I still want to close the loop somewhere. I take notes, just scribbles as I'm as I'm going, but I never have questions ahead of time and even if a person asks me to prepare questions ahead of time, I say no, really. And if they insist, then I say fine, here are some questions I may ask, but I promise you I'm not going to stick to these questions because I don't want to have it that then anybody can host the show. It's not my show anymore. It's anybody who reads these questions. That's hosting the show. So that that's kind of how I approach it one of the questions I literally wrote.
Speaker 2:Now I know I have to read it because the way you said it, you do a great job of teasing out interesting stories and facts that may not Come out and enter other interviews. How do you prepare for these? And so I love to know that the way you're preparing is you're not preparing those questions in advance, and it's rather Driven by genuine curiosity that it's actually hearing something going. Oh wait, that's probably something that my listeners heard and they will want to actually learn more about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean honestly. There was an interview I did with somebody it may have been Jordan Harmerger, who I know has been on here before when I thought it was gonna be about one thing, and then he ends up talking about this thing called the layoff lifeline. As a result of what he was talking about, and I just was like layoff lifeline, what is that? And we started talking about it and we spent the next 45 minutes talking about that. It was. It's probably one of those useful things I've ever learned from him. He and our good friends were both advisors just one cast, in fact and I use that in presentations now. I've mentioned it and have credited him with that, but If I just stuck to the script, that would have never happened can you tell me quickly what is the layoff lifeline?
Speaker 2:because if I don't ask that now, then everybody watching this very good lose it.
Speaker 1:You're doing exactly the way I like. This is perfect. So the reason this is important is because when I brought Jordan on the show, he had just gotten basically kicked out of his own podcast and business. He had a show called the art of charm. His partners essentially kicked him to the curb and he was kind of left on the streets, which was not cool at all. I Won't go into the story more than that, but what happened was Jordan was left needing some help and he called on his friends to help. He texted me and texted several other people and Every single person he texted Helped them out in his time of need.
Speaker 1:He got laid off and he had some lifelines and it was because for years, for example, with Jordan and I, we connected at an event. Once he followed up and literally like every two months, every three months, he's sending me an email, he's sending me a text message, just checking in, and it's not like hey, pat, I have this podcast episode that just came out. I'd love for you to share it for me. It's like hey, I saw on your Instagram that you went to Disneyland. Like how was that? And it's just like oh, it was cool. Like, how are you, how are you doing? And we've just stayed in connection.
Speaker 1:What he was doing was he was building his well before he was thirsty, building these relationships to the point where, when he really needed some water, we were all there to support him. And that's building your layoff lifeline such that, if you were to get laid off, you have people who you could reach out to and who could advocate for you and who could help you in your time of need. It's not and he this is the story he told in the podcast episode. I did that, I remember, because it made me chuckle. But he was like yeah, that's the difference between that and like somebody who you haven't heard of for five years, reaching out to you and being like hey, I know we haven't chatted for a while, but I had this ebook about dog training you think you could public, like, share it with your audience.
Speaker 2:For me, it's an ebook or it's herbal life or something is a multi-level marketing.
Speaker 1:I don't know, but anyway, that's, that's the layoff lifeline. And so one thing that I love to do now and I've done this live on stage before at Flynn con in San Diego, I did this live as a demo and it was so cool I told everybody to turn their phone on, like off of silent, like let's, let's turn on our phones. And everybody turned on their phones, are like what's going on? And I said go to your text message app and scroll all the way to the bottom and for the bottom 10 people, the people that you haven't reached out to for who knows how long, send a message to say hey, just checking in and seeing how you're doing what's going on.
Speaker 1:And all of a sudden, within like a minute, like all throughout the conference, and it was so cool because, like when I told everybody to put the phones off again, like not everybody did it and every every, like you know 30 minutes, one would go off and I'd be like there's a connection that was just made. And it's like so cool because I heard stories from people who were like yeah, I didn't even know, my friend is in San Diego right now and we're going out to get dinner tomorrow. Like those connections can happen all the time. We just forget about them and we've just kind of we kind of stay in this cycle of like only focus on the thing that's right in front of you, when many times we got to like dig our well before we're thirsty, and that's one way to do it.
Speaker 2:I love those stories. I feel like it's so much fun to reconnect with people and kind of learn more about how, what's happening in their lives and we do all know there. You have people in your life who you know when they're reaching out that it means they need something. They want something and you naturally get in this kind of defensive posture. But if you are one of the people who's reaching out and just reconnecting because you genuinely like people and you want to be friends, then if you ever need that moment where you need something or maybe just need a helping hand, they're going to be there because they know you're not in it just for a favor. You're in the relationship because you actually care about them genuinely.
Speaker 1:Exactly so go do that, exercise everybody.
Speaker 2:I love that. I would love if you were watching this on YouTube. Do that now and then leave us a comment about what happens when you reconnect to the person at the very bottom of all of your text messages. So can I ask you, has there ever been a time an interview has just gone off the rails? You're halfway through the interview and you realize it's not going in a direction that you like and you're not sure you're going to be able to salvage it. Gotcha.
Speaker 1:Because there's been times when I'm interviewing and then all of a sudden I lose internet power, goes down and that's off the rails as well.
Speaker 1:Oh no, but more of a, and there's been times when I forgot to hit record and then I realize it's after having scheduled and done the conversation. That's not cool either. So that's not cool, but there's been a couple of times where I will do an interview and it's just like this is dry. This person's not all here today and I just know that my audience isn't going to really be engaged with this. So you have some decisions to make.
Speaker 1:When you record an episode like that, do you publish it anyway, because you feel bad that you scheduled this thing and it would be weird if you didn't. But you also have an obligation to your audience to publish content that you know is helpful and is to your level of standard. So what do you do? So one time thankfully this was a friend I reached out to him and I said yo, and this is what I always do.
Speaker 1:I'm like you know, I think it was me, maybe it was you, I don't know, but I just didn't feel a good conversation when we had our podcasts recorded yesterday and I re-listened to it and it just feels like our energy wasn't there, like maybe I just didn't ask the best questions. But if you don't mind, I'd love to try one more time and I promise I'm going to make it more exciting and if there's anything I can do to help you, like let me know. And that was with Clay Collins, one of the founders of Lead Pages, and I think it was episode 285. No, I don't know. I know a lot of the episodes, but not all of them. I've been pretty impressed.
Speaker 2:You've quoted three different episode numbers and I was like, how is he pulling these out, remembering 200 episodes ago, getting the numbers?
Speaker 1:But we re-recorded it and it ended up becoming the most fastest downloaded podcast we ever had. It ended up getting 300,000 downloads in about two weeks, which is just insane, and again, it made me very grateful that we both kind of went back at it and tried to do it better. We ended up repositioning it and making it more exciting for both of us really is really what we did. Another time has happened with a person who wasn't necessarily a friend, who I was afraid to just reach out to and go. Yeah, that wasn't good, I'm not going to publish this. So here's what I did.
Speaker 1:I got a little creative. There was a moment in the middle that was decent, like he said something based on an answer that was actually quite useful. It was like the one time and I reached out to this guy and I said, hey, there was a part in the middle that got me really excited, so excited, in fact, that I ended up changing the entire episode Like I'm going to play your clip to your answer to my question in the beginning, and I made the whole episode about that. Thank you so much for inspiring us, because this is going to be even more useful. Make sure to still link to your stuff. But that quote and everything you said there just completely changed this episode. Like, thank you, and a person goes oh okay, you're welcome, that's cool. I can't believe I said something so profound that made you change the whole thing, when really, in fact, I'm just like trying to cover up the fact that the rest of it was poo, poo. So it worked.
Speaker 2:It's a testament to how much you actually care about your audience that you're saying. The easy thing here is just to edit it up a little bit, polish it and go. Well, it's not great, but not everything's a gold medal and you can just send it and it is a testament to how much you care about your audience. It's probably why Smart Passive Income has grown over the years so much because you actually want people to get something that is transformational and that they actually will enjoy, not just oh, I've got to get an episode out because this is my published day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nothing, thank you. I appreciate that. I don't know if you know this, but we're actually doubling down on our podcast. This year, starting mid-year, we're going to have two episodes per week instead of one. Now we're leaning into it even more.
Speaker 2:I heard that from SJ and I love it. I just love every time I hear that people who are creating in multiple mediums are doubling down on podcasting. It's such an affirmation for what we're doing at Buzzsprout all the time. I really do believe podcasting is the special thing that is so much better than a lot of other content types, because it facilitates these really good conversations and ways for people to balance ideas off each other. It's a give and take where you learn quite a bit rather than just reacting. So thank you so much for saying that, because those are always the best moments for me to hear people like you say that, of course. Well, pat, I know we've already run over and I want to be conscious of your time and respectful of that. So thank you so much for doing this interview with me. Where should people go if they want to learn more about you and your courses and everything you've put together?
Speaker 1:Yeah, smartpassiveincomecom is the place to go. You can see some of our upcoming free trainings at smartpassiveincomecom, slash webinars and, if you'd like to check out PowerUp Podcasting, poweruppodcastingcom. All the things are referenced at smartpassiveincomecom. However, it's just to make it easy, and then I'm at Pat Flynn. On most social media channels and even on YouTube, you can find me at Pat Flynn as well.
Speaker 2:Well, great. Thank you so much, Pat. Looking forward to seeing all the reactions to this video and reading all the comments about what happens when people actually reach out to all their friends at the bottom of their texts and reconnect. So drop us some of those comments and until next time, keep podcasting.